# Anti-vaxxers are ignorant scumbags that kill children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 1, 2016, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626 "2016-09-01T01:59:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/581 "2019-02-25T13:32:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > There has been an unfortunate outbreak of [stupid](https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2018/02/09/milwaukees-newly-picked-top-health-official-says-science-still-out/323462002/) in Milwaukee. The mouth-breather in question tried the usual waffling - > The previous one got canned for not following on lead in children. This one should be canned for not following up on the lead between her ears. > > Regards, > Shodan Very true, and one more reason I believe stupidity should be painful. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/582 "2019-02-25T13:36:39Z")
> [@Mr.Duality](#): > > Vaccines cause adults. Well, lots of adults suck anyway šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/583 "2019-02-25T13:48:09Z")
> [@Jackmanii](#): > > ā€¦referring to the pharma industry as ā€œorganized crimeā€ I certainly donā€™t disagree with that statement. For different, arguably less insane reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/584 "2019-02-25T13:49:37Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I certainly donā€™t disagree with that statement. For different, arguably less insane reasons. Ben Goldacre: > [@](#): > > pharma being shit does not mean magic beans cure cancer ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/585 "2019-02-25T13:58:49Z")
The latest trends in vax/anti-vaxā€¦While the Pacific Northwest is moving towards mandatory vaccination for school kids, Arizona seems to be doing [the opposite.](https://gizmodo.com/arizona-house-panel-votes-to-expand-vaccine-exemptions-1832857390) > [@](#): > > An Arizona House panel has approved multiple bills to expand vaccine exemptions in the state, the Arizona Republic reported Friday. > > The paper reported the state House Health and Human Services Committee approved three bills with 5-4 votes and support from Republican lawmakers. Representative Nancy Barto, who sponsored the bills, claimed that the bills aim to ā€œstrike that balanceā€ between arguments on ā€œboth sidesā€ and that vaccinations are ā€œnot a one size fits all option for every child.ā€ The aims of the bills include expanded exemptions for religious reasons as well as axing a requirement that parents or guardians sign a document in order to opt out of vaccinations. Where have we heard ā€œbalanceā€ and ā€œboth sidesā€ before? Oh, yes, ā€œteach the controversyā€ about evolution. And Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![Mona\_Lisa\_Simpson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ce7236/32.png) [@Mona\_Lisa\_Simpson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mona_Lisa_Simpson)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/586 "2019-02-25T14:48:57Z")
The latest news from Vancouver, BC which is unrelated to the WA state/ Oregon outbreak. [https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/vancouver-outbreak-of-measles-may-have-spread-to-edmonton](https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/vancouver-outbreak-of-measles-may-have-spread-to-edmonton) Many of the outbreaks in and around Vancouver/Lower mainland have been associated with the anti-vaxxers in the Fraser Valley, fundamentalist, homeschool bible belt. Now this shit is in the city. Patient zero or the sibling of is at a French-language high school in my neighbourhood, one is at another French language school in the city. There was exposure at BC Childrenā€™s hospital. People taking public transit and going to Alberta and then the North West Territories. Iā€™m freaking livid. Iā€™m ok, vaccinated (and born just barely before the January 1st 1970 cut offā€” the theory is those of us born before that either had it or were exposed in early childhood and are immune) My son is vaccinated. I deal with foreign students all the time, they have to get their vaccinations before they do clinical placements. All the vaccinations, including the MMR, (Measles, Mumps and Rubella) and the DPPT and their Hepatitis B etc. Also, the flu vaccine is mandatory for clinical placements in the winter (North American winter/flu season) For hospital staff, the Flu Vaccine is not mandatory but if they chose not to they have to wear face masks from November 1st to April 1st. This confuses some of my students who think, why canā€™t I just wear a mask? One or two students have wondered if this is some kind of anti immigrant thing directed at them. Iā€™m tired of explaining it all, Iā€™m tired of explaining that people who can get a shot for free choose not to, but they have to. Iā€™m sick of all of this. My grandparents somehow kept 10 kids alive through adulthood, in a city that had some severe polio outbreaks in the 40s and 50s. Money was tight and this was before universal health care in Canada. My mom and her sisters always got their vaccines even if it meant my grandparents had holes in their shoes. No one ever used to think doctors were just in it for money. No one ever mistook a celebrity mouthing off his or her opinions for scientific fact. My dad had years where he wasnā€™t allowed to go swimming or to movie theatres because of polio. My mom knew kids with polio. Kids who died of measles. This was only 60 years ago. My sonā€™s best friendā€™s dad is an anti-vaxxer now, although my sonā€™s friend had all his injections as a baby. Just no recent updates, including his tetanus shot. My son is fed up with the disinformation going around and has said: ā€œHey Billy thereā€™s a rusty nail, donā€™t go near it, since your Dad wonā€™t get you vaccinated!ā€ ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/587 "2019-02-25T20:29:10Z")
Speaking of Vancouver: > **[OPINION | I almost said 'no' to vaccinating my son. My doctor took the time...](https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/vaccination-parents-1.5030564)** > > By the time I saw my doctor for my two-month-old's shots, I was crawling with anxiety. Hesitantly, I managed to say "I believe in vaccines. I know they work. But I'm very scared right now. What happens if...something happens?" > [@andros](#): > > I certainly donā€™t disagree with that statement (that the pharmaceutical industry is equivalent to organized crime). For different, arguably less insane reasons. Then I hope youā€™ll avoid antibiotics if you become septic, clot-busting drugs if you have a stroke, insulin if diabetic etc. Because you donā€™t want to support ā€œorganized crimeā€. šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/588 "2019-02-25T20:40:58Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Then I hope youā€™ll avoid antibiotics if you become septic, clot-busting drugs if you have a stroke, insulin if diabetic etc. > > Because you donā€™t want to support ā€œorganized crimeā€. šŸ˜ƒ Hey, when the mooks in suits roll into my home saying what a nice place I have and wouldnā€™t it just be a shame if something were to, yanno, _happen_ to it, Iā€™m for sure gonna pay the fuckers. Interesting that you mention [insulin](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-congress-insulin/u-s-senators-launch-bipartisan-probe-into-rising-insulin-prices-idUSKCN1QB2HF), though. The idea that ā€œbig pharmaā€ is a racket is not new, and amply borne out by the evidenceā€¦and is not contradicted by the indisputable benefits they provide. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/589 "2019-02-25T21:37:39Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > ā€¦Because you donā€™t want to support ā€œorganized crimeā€. šŸ˜ƒ > [@andros](#): > > Interesting that you mention [insulin](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-congress-insulin/u-s-senators-launch-bipartisan-probe-into-rising-insulin-prices-idUSKCN1QB2HF), though. The idea that ā€œbig pharmaā€ is a racket is not new, and amply borne out by the evidenceā€¦and is not contradicted by the indisputable benefits they provide. Yup, the term ā€œracketā€ and the notion of ā€œan offer you canā€™t refuseā€ are more than just hyperbolic analogies: you need insulin, nobody else has it, you must pay our cartelā€™s inflated price or you will die. Very recent update on a class action: [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-15/novo-nordisk-lilly-sanofi-must-face-insulin-drug-pricing-suit](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-15/novo-nordisk-lilly-sanofi-must-face-insulin-drug-pricing-suit) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/590 "2019-02-26T13:25:14Z")
Go ahead and rant all you want about drug companies being ā€œorganized crimeā€. That rhetoric plays into the hands of people like [this guy](https://www.naturalnews.com/2019-02-24-fda-pharma-mob-bosses-demand-u-s-states-eliminate-vaccine-exemptions.html). ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/591 "2019-02-26T14:28:49Z")
Wow, that is some bizarre website. I do have my complaints against ā€œBig Pharma.ā€ They are in it to make money, and want everyone to be on several types of ā€œmedications.ā€ But not as bad of that guy. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/592 "2019-02-26T14:51:44Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Go ahead and rant all you want about drug companies being ā€œorganized crimeā€. > > That rhetoric plays into the hands of people like [this guy](https://www.naturalnews.com/2019-02-24-fda-pharma-mob-bosses-demand-u-s-states-eliminate-vaccine-exemptions.html). Rant? No. But Iā€™m curious how you would choose to describe the Sacklers. Just some nice helpful folks trying to do the right thing? Because the evidence increasingly points to their being quite reasonably described as an organized criminal enterprise. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/593 "2019-02-26T14:54:39Z")
How much is it necessary to cushion criticism of pharmaceutical companies because conspiracy theorists overdo it by three or four orders of magnitude? Failing to vaccinate children is (in the overwhelming majority of cases) monstrous, but so is jacking up the price of necessary treatments. Particularly relatively ancient, generic ones. (Like the $220 price tag I recently faced for a tricylcic antidepressant from the goddamn sixties. Reduced to $100 with a change in pharmacy and a coupon, but still.) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/594 "2019-02-26T15:25:47Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > How much is it necessary to cushion criticism of pharmaceutical companies because conspiracy theorists overdo it by three or four orders of magnitude? Itā€™s quite possible to criticize drug companies which employ pricing practices that could reasonably be characterized as gouging or predatory. Ones that conceal or downplay negative research findings can be blasted as dishonest. However, using insane rhetoric puts you in the same class as insane people. Donā€™t want to be associated with Alex Jones and Mike Adams? Donā€™t sound like them. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/595 "2019-02-26T15:40:27Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > ā€¦However, using insane rhetoric puts you in the same class as insane peopleā€¦ ā€œAw, I donā€™t have to take this abuse from you, Iā€™ve got hundreds of people dying to abuse me.ā€ Iā€™m an antifascist, anticapitalist, open-borders, socialist psychotherapist. I easily classify as insane for most people. šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/596 "2019-02-26T15:54:30Z")
(Honestly, I get your point **Jackmanii**. I just feel that the potential harm (reinforcing the anti-vax crazy) of my calling it as I see it is terribly small and well-offset in the broad sense by my own actions and advocacy. Holding companies like Purdue responsible for the very real and very severe damage they have caused in pursuit of profit would truly be a net benefit to the US and the world. I really want to see that happen.) ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/597 "2019-02-26T20:03:23Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Go ahead and rant all you want about drug companies being ā€œorganized crimeā€. > > That rhetoric plays into the hands of people like [this guy](https://www.naturalnews.com/2019-02-24-fda-pharma-mob-bosses-demand-u-s-states-eliminate-vaccine-exemptions.html). I donā€™t agree, I donā€™t think downplaying or excusing the fact that Big Pharma _does_ sometimes behave badly is an appropriate way to oppose anti-vaxxers. Anti-vaxxers are wrong because a massive amount of scientific evidence shows that they are wrong, not because we should all trust profit-driven corporations to behave well. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/598 "2019-02-26T20:38:14Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I donā€™t agree, I donā€™t think downplaying or excusing the fact that Big Pharma _does_ sometimes behave badly And who has done that here? As a further example: certain elected politicians, have, um, behaved badly. We can certainly point that out using appropriately vociferous language. On the other hand, raving about them being Fascist dictators, Lizard People or Demonic Extraterrestrials Out To Depopulate The Earth muddies the message just a tad. :dubious: I like to think thereā€™s a marked difference between the Straight Dope and whale.to\*, but maybe thatā€™s not entirely true. \*if you go there and need to order gallons of brain bleach, donā€™t say I didnā€™t warn you. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/599 "2019-02-26T20:44:50Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > And who has done that here? What other interpretation of your post #590 would you expect other than an admonition to downplay the wrongdoing of drug companies? > [@Jackmannii](#): > > Go ahead and rant all you want about drug companies being ā€œorganized crimeā€. > > That rhetoric plays into the hands of people like [this guy](https://www.naturalnews.com/2019-02-24-fda-pharma-mob-bosses-demand-u-s-states-eliminate-vaccine-exemptions.html). The actual court case that I linked to explicitly accused them of racketeering. I donā€™t think that comparing insulin price fixing to organized crime is excessively hyperbolic, and I donā€™t think tone policing it is relevant to our evidence-based opposition to anti-vaxxers. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/600 "2019-02-26T21:02:09Z")
ETA: in fact, Iā€™d go further, and say that I think explicitly conceding the fact that drug companies behave badly may be a _good_ way to discuss vaccination with hesitant parents, viz. > [@](#): > > Yes, drug companies sometimes behave badly in pursuit of profit, and I agree that they should be more stringently regulated. But nothing Iā€™m telling you here is about asking you to place blind faith in trusting drug companies. What we know about vaccine safety and efficacy is based on a vast amount of independent and carefully peer-reviewed scientific research that you can see for yourself hereā€¦ [etc etc] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626.md?page=31)