# Anti-vaxxers are ignorant scumbags that kill children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 1, 2016, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626 "2016-09-01T01:59:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/601 "2019-02-26T22:27:00Z")
BTW, I’m reading [The Skeptic’s Guide to the Universe](https://www.amazon.com/Skeptics-Guide-Universe-Really-Increasingly/dp/1538760533/ref=sr_1_fkmrnull_2?crid=28PJUFUE3MVTE&keywords=skeptics+guide+to+the+universe+book&qid=1551219790&s=gateway&sprefix=Skeptics+%2Caps%2C241&sr=8-2-fkmrnull) which details logical fallacies, and he notes a website called Spurious Correlations which lets you enter several variables to look for apparent correlations between them. His favorite a tight correlation between organic food sales and autism diagnoses. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/602 "2019-02-26T23:03:17Z")
Some of you may be unaware that a standard tactic in the antivax Bag O’Tricks is to condemn vaccines on the basis that Big Pharma is Evil and Untrustworthy, therefore Vaccines are Bad Too (a common ploy is to haul out Vioxx as an example of why we should avoid immunization. A companion tactic is to tell us that doctors once appeared in cigarettte ads, so don’t trust doctors). If you agree with antivaxers’ hyperbolic rants about how Big Pharma is Evil and Organized Crime, you won’t have much of a logical comeback when they tell you that’s why they don’t trust vaccines. I’m with [Megan Doodle\* and Scary Mommy](https://www.scarymommy.com/nurse-moms-epic-big-pharma-rant-goes-viral/) on this one. > [@Riemann](#): > > What other interpretation of your post #590 would you expect other than an admonition to downplay the wrongdoing of drug companies? That you’re an asshole? After years of being attacked in online vaccine debates as a Pharma Shill, I have very little tolerance for it, and even less when it occurs on a message board supposedly dedicated to fighting ignorance. So fuck off. \*I love the name “Megan Doodle”. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/603 "2019-02-26T23:35:37Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Some of you may be unaware that a standard tactic in the antivax Bag O’Tricks is to condemn vaccines on the basis that Big Pharma is Evil and Untrustworthy, therefore Vaccines are Bad Too (a common ploy is to haul out Vioxx as an example of why we should avoid immunization. A companion tactic is to tell us that doctors once appeared in cigarettte ads, so don’t trust doctors). > If you agree with antivaxers’ hyperbolic rants about how Big Pharma is Evil and Organized Crime, you won’t have much of a logical comeback when they tell you that’s why they don’t trust vaccines. I think the sensible approach is to refuse to grant the premise that anything in the vaccine debate hinges on the honesty of Big Pharma in the first place. Of course, Big Pharma is not _always_ evil or _always_ good. But we’re not advocating that anyone needs to trust them. We know that vaccines are safe and effective not because anyone at Big Pharma told us, but because of the mountain of independent peer-reviewed research. If you don’t frame the debate this way, then what’s _your_ logical comeback when a major case where Big Pharma acts very badly actually hits the headlines? Again, to quote Ben Goldacre: > [@Ben Goldacre](#): > > …pharma being shit does not mean magic beans cure cancer. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > …That you’re an asshole?..So fuck off. I thought were discussing a substantive issue, but if you don’t want to, feel free to disappear up your own asshole and refuse to listen to another reasoned perspective from someone who’s essentially on the same side on all the issues. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/604 "2019-02-27T00:46:24Z")
> [@Jackmanii](#): > > …raving about them being Fascist dictators, Lizard People or Demonic Extraterrestrials Out To Depopulate The Earth muddies the message just a tad. Whew! It’s a damn good thing no one has done that! As soon as someone does, I’ll join you in ridiculing them! In the meantime, how _would_ you characterize the Sacklers? Or indeed, the practices of Lili, Sanofi, and Novo Nordisk _re_ insulin? What kind of language of condemnation would you consider appropriate without providing aid and comfort to the enemy? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/605 "2019-02-27T01:51:26Z")
One suggestion might be to resolve that assigning a characterization to them is beyond the scope of a discussion of how horrible the antivax movement and its advocates are; agree that if any antivax assholes show up and attempt to Gish gallop or otherwise shoehorn the subject into the discussion, they will be shut down; and hold the Pitting of the Sacklers and Big Insulin in a different thread. Okay that might count as three suggestions, but it seems like bunch of anti-antivaxxers should be level-headed enough to adopt them as a suite. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/606 "2019-02-27T04:21:32Z")
Done and done! ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/607 "2019-02-27T04:32:10Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > …bunch of anti-antivaxxers… But nobody wants to be an anti, it’s just such a downer! If the anti-vaxxers get to call themselves “pro-vaccine-choice”, I want to be pro-something. I even prefer provolone to antipasto. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/608 "2019-02-27T14:02:17Z")
Well, since vaccination saves lives, you could call yourself “pro-life”… (what?) ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/609 "2019-03-01T12:19:35Z")
A crazy politician in Arizona [https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/something-is-in-those-vaccines-lawmaker-says-mandatory-measles-shots-are-communist/ar-BBUeXKA?li=BBnb7Kz#page=2](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/something-is-in-those-vaccines-lawmaker-says-mandatory-measles-shots-are-communist/ar-BBUeXKA?li=BBnb7Kz#page=2) Forcing measle shots is Communist she says. What a bitch. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/610 "2019-03-01T12:24:41Z")
Arizona state Rep Kelly Townsend says [pushing for vaccines is “Communist”](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/something-is-in-those-vaccines-lawmaker-says-mandatory-measles-shots-are-communist/ar-BBUeXKA?ocid=spartandhp). > [@](#): > > Townsend says her opposition is rooted in her experience. The legislator’s 22-year-old daughter has significant medical problems that she blames on a vaccine she received when she was 10 months old. **She says no scientific evidence will convince her otherwise.** (bolding mine) When people, especially people in a position of power and influence, say that no amount of scientific evidence will change their position the debate stops. They have declared you to be the enemy, and that everything you say is just part of the conspiracy. Fight them, expose them, get them out of office and get those kids vaccinated before this deliberate ignorance kills even more people. ninja’ed by **Baker**. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/611 "2019-03-01T12:31:53Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > A crazy politician in Arizona > > [MSN](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/something-is-in-those-vaccines-lawmaker-says-mandatory-measles-shots-are-communist/ar-BBUeXKA?li=BBnb7Kz#page=2) > > Forcing measle shots is Communist she says. What a bitch. I thought we didn’t hate Communists anymore. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/612 "2019-03-01T14:17:58Z")
> [@](#): > > When the naturopath Elias Kass testified before a Washington state senate committee on 20 February with a baby on his chest and a pacifier in his hand, he knew that his arguments would be unpopular with the anti-vaccine activists in the room. Amid a measles outbreak that has infected 66 people so far, legislators were considering a bill to eliminate personal and philosophical exemptions for childhood vaccinations, and Kass was one of several practitioners to speak in support of the measure. > > Kass faced some anger in the hallway after the hearing, he said, with one person calling him “a disgusting liar”. But it wasn’t until several hours later that “the shit hit the fan”. That’s when Kass realized that his Facebook page was being flooded with one-star reviews calling him everything from a “disgrace” and a “pedophile” to a “Nazi pharma shill” and “scumbag shilling for infanticide”. Kass disabled the Yelp-like reviews feature on the page, but that didn’t stop the onslaught, which moved into the page’s comments and across the ecosystem of anti-vaxx Facebook pages and groups. By Monday, five days after his brief testimony, he had compiled a photo gallery with hundreds of screenshots of abusive comments. > **[Anti-vaxx 'mobs': doctors face harassment campaigns on Facebook](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/feb/27/facebook-anti-vaxx-harassment-campaigns-doctors-fight-back)** > > Medical experts who counter misinformation are weathering coordinated attacks. Now some are fighting back ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/613 "2019-03-01T18:14:00Z")
I’m just going to drop this in here to lighten the mood a little: [Class Report](https://somethingpositive.net/sp02282019.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/614 "2019-03-01T20:55:23Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > I’m just going to drop this in here to lighten the mood a little: > > [Class Report](https://somethingpositive.net/sp02282019.shtml) Saw that this morning. It was awesome. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2019, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/615 "2019-03-02T05:23:06Z")
[Christ](https://www.kgw.com/amp/article?section=news&subsection=health&headline=traveler-with-measles-may-have-exposed-others-in-salem-and-at-portland-international-airport&contentId=283-42519754-dae4-4031-8a82-4cb235ff73a5). Seriously, Oregon is batshit enough, we don’t need unvaccinated Illinois assholes tramping through. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2019, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/616 "2019-03-02T05:45:46Z")
> [@andros](#): > > [Christ](https://www.kgw.com/amp/article?section=news&subsection=health&headline=traveler-with-measles-may-have-exposed-others-in-salem-and-at-portland-international-airport&contentId=283-42519754-dae4-4031-8a82-4cb235ff73a5). Seriously, Oregon is batshit enough, we don’t need unvaccinated Illinois assholes tramping through. “God, I hate Illinois anti-vaxxies.” ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/617 "2019-03-03T08:23:14Z")
Once we get schools dealt with, are we going to have to start requiring vaccination records to get on an airliner? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/618 "2019-03-03T08:56:51Z")
If people keep spreading disease at [airports](https://abc7chicago.com/health/measles-exposure-possible-at-midway-airport-delnor-hospital-/5161761/) that’s not an unlikely scenario. And if I recall, people traveling on airplanes was a major reason SARS jumped from Asia to Canada a few years back. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/619 "2019-03-03T17:03:32Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Once we get schools dealt with, are we going to have to start requiring vaccination records to get on an airliner? If you are a foreigner coming to the US, you have to be up to date on all your shots. We don’t require US citizens to prove immunizations under the assumption that a US citizen is vaccinated unless there is a good reason not to be. Since that is no longer a valid assumption, due to anti-vaxxers, then yeah, that’s not a bad idea. Proof of vaccines or _medical_ exemption, or no flying. Side question: Is there any benefit to getting re-vaccinated with MMR, if you happen to be near a measles outbreak? It is _only_ 97% effective, and while it is good for life, well, we are not all the same. Could do a titers, but that’s usually more expensive than the vaccine anyway. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/620 "2019-03-03T17:06:32Z")
I asked my PCP if I should be re-vaccinated with MMR; since I’d previously had the booster (possibly twice due to international work), she thought not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626.md?page=32)