# Anti-vaxxers are ignorant scumbags that kill children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 1, 2016, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626 "2016-09-01T01:59:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/641 "2019-03-10T02:23:59Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Yes. At least tetanus is not contagious, so this isn’t going to a phenomenon like measles outbreaks. But that doesn’t help this poor kid who was unlucky enough to be born to idiot parents. I’m pretty sure that the anti-vaccination people will claim that the boy would have done just fine if his parents had kept him on a wholesome diet with lots of vitamins to boost his immune system to fight off the tetanus. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/642 "2019-03-10T02:37:40Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Question for those of you who are lucky enough to have a UHC. Should that have happened in Canada, would they still be on the hook, or would even expenses created by negligence be covered? I don’t know about medical expenses, but a Canadian antivax couple convicted of negligence in the death of their young son from meningitis (they treated him with homemade remedies including onion, garlic and horseradish concoctions rather than seeking proper medical care) has asked for the province of Alberta to award them $4 million to cover past and future legal fees for their retrial this coming June.\* \*the original convictions were overturned in a higher court due to improper jury instructions. A criminal court judge refused the couple’s request for millions to cover legal fees but last I heard they could still request the $$$ in civil court. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/643 "2019-03-10T06:46:30Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Question for those of you who are lucky enough to have a UHC. Should that have happened in Canada, would they still be on the hook, or would even expenses created by negligence be covered? We don’t get billed for medical expenses. Ever. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/644 "2019-03-10T12:00:50Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > And they’re still refusing to give him any vaccines whatsoever. > > Time to call CPS? For what? It’s still not illegal to NOT get the kid a tetanus shot. (It should be, but it’s not) :mad: ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/645 "2019-03-10T16:01:54Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I don’t know about medical expenses, but a Canadian antivax couple convicted of negligence in the death of their young son from meningitis (they treated him with homemade remedies including onion, garlic and horseradish concoctions rather than seeking proper medical care) has asked for the province of Alberta to award them $4 million to cover past and future legal fees for their retrial this coming June.\* > > \*the original convictions were overturned in a higher court due to improper jury instructions. A criminal court judge refused the couple’s request for millions to cover legal fees but last I heard they could still request the $$$ in civil court. They should send them some onion, garlic, and horseradish. If it’s good enough to defend your body from disease, it should be good enough to defend you in court. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > We don’t get billed for medical expenses. Ever. I do have to admit that that’s pretty cool, but is there any penalty for not vaccinating? In the US, we do not allow children to attend public school without their shots, I could get behind having a warning that, while health services are typically covered, if you make the choice to forgo the recommended preventative measures, while you or your child will be treated, you are going to have to pay for at least some of the cost of the treatment. Or maybe just have a fine for parents who don’t vaccinate that goes towards treating unvaccinated children. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/646 "2019-03-10T16:12:03Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > a Canadian antivax couple convicted of negligence in the death of their young son from meningitis (they treated him with homemade remedies including onion, garlic and horseradish concoctions rather than seeking proper medical care) They did make sure the dead kid would be delicious though. I think that oughta count for something. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/647 "2019-03-10T17:25:19Z")
I just came to this thread after reading a [news report](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/09/well/oregon-child-tetanus-vaccine.html) about the Oregon boy with tetanus. (Another article is [here](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/68/wr/mm6809a3.htm?s_cid=mm6809a3_e), from Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report.) The article in the NYT talks about hospital bills of more than $800,000. I really doubt the parents are paying the whole thing, but I think they should be sued for whatever they didn’t pay, on the basis that this was preventable negligence. (And if they have any money left over after _that_, someone should sue them on behalf of the kid, who suffered needlessly.) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/648 "2019-03-10T18:05:55Z")
> [@Dewey Finn](#): > > I just came to this thread after reading a [news report](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/09/well/oregon-child-tetanus-vaccine.html) about the Oregon boy with tetanus. (Another article is [here](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/68/wr/mm6809a3.htm?s_cid=mm6809a3_e), from Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report.) You know, I know that M&M is the medical profession’s traditional way of looking at potential mistakes. But knowing that doesn’t help my brain not giggling at Morbidity & Mortality Weekly at all. “It’s a necrophiliac porn rag !”, it keeps guffawing. “It is also pleonastic”, the more serious albeit supercilious half of Brainy immediately adds. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/649 "2019-03-10T19:40:57Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > They should send them some onion, garlic, and horseradish. If it’s good enough to defend your body from disease, it should be good enough to defend you in court. > > I do have to admit that that’s pretty cool, but is there any penalty for not vaccinating? In the US, we do not allow children to attend public school without their shots, I could get behind having a warning that, while health services are typically covered, if you make the choice to forgo the recommended preventative measures, while you or your child will be treated, you are going to have to pay for at least some of the cost of the treatment. > > Or maybe just have a fine for parents who don’t vaccinate that goes towards treating unvaccinated children. Actually, all 50 states allow students with legit medical reasons for not getting vaccinated to attend, and all but three (CA, MS, and WV) allow religious exemptions. 17 states, including mine, allow “philosophical” exemptions. I think most Canadian provinces don’t require vaccinations for public school, but maybe one of our Canadian Dopers can tell us. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/650 "2019-03-10T19:48:34Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Actually, all 50 states allow students with legit medical reasons for not getting vaccinated to attend, and all but three (CA, MS, and WV) allow religious exemptions. 17 states, including mine, allow “philosophical” exemptions. I think most Canadian provinces don’t require vaccinations for public school, but maybe one of our Canadian Dopers can tell us. Yeah, I was thinking that at this point, we can accept the exceptions as a given. Obviously, legit medical exceptions are well, legit. I don’t really think that any other exceptions should exist, IMHO. Maybe I should take that to the “well…yeah” thread. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2019, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/651 "2019-03-11T07:09:51Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I could get behind having a warning that, while health services are typically covered, if you make the choice to forgo the recommended preventative measures, while you or your child will be treated, you are going to have to pay for at least some of the cost of the treatment. As soon as you do that, it’s no longer UHC. The point of UHC is to provide health services, as needed because you’re sick, injured, etc. It’s not to become the basis for a life-style monitor by the government. “You’ve been smoking for years. You’ll pay full freight for your COPD treatment.” “The police concluded you were at fault in the car accident. Since it was your negligence that caused your injuries, you’re not covered.” “Rock-climbing is an inherently dangerous sport. Your fall was caused by your own negligence, so you’ll have to pay full cost for the surgery to repair your leg.” No thanks. The whole purpose of UHC is to provide health care, as needed, not to allow the government to start judging you and putting you on the hook for your health care costs because the government doesn’t approve of your lifestyle choices or your conduct in a particular situation. ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2019, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/652 "2019-03-11T18:46:38Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Actually, all 50 states allow students with legit medical reasons for not getting vaccinated to attend, and all but three (CA, MS, and WV) allow religious exemptions. 17 states, including mine, allow “philosophical” exemptions. I think most Canadian provinces don’t require vaccinations for public school, but maybe one of our Canadian Dopers can tell us. Ontario requires proof of vaccination (records are maintained by public health services). A parent can get an exemption for valid medical reasons, or for reasons of religion or conscience, but the latter requires that the parent attend a certified vaccine education session, plus completion of a formal, notarized affidavit with about half the form taken up by warnings about the dangers of non-vaccination, plus warnings that your kid can be expelled from school for the duration of any disease outbreak. So you can get your exemption, but you have to work at the whole ignorance bit. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2019, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/653 "2019-03-11T20:10:21Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > My God, these people are such idiots! The hospital gave him the first dose of the vaccine when he was life-flighted in. And then despite a prolonged, excruciating, life-threatening course of tetanus, they refuse the second dose? Obviously way too much fun was had to preclude the possibility of going through all that again by getting that second dose. According to the Morbidity & Mortality Weekly link that **Kobal2** supplied, they gave him a DTaP, so if his system was able to pick it up, he should have some immunity to diphtheria and pertussis as well. So that’s a small mercy. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2019, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/654 "2019-03-11T22:25:10Z")
I’m 100% pro-vax, and have basically zero patience for anyone anti-vax. However, one of my FB friends recently posted about how he had not vaccinated his (now 12-ish) son, and one thing he mentioned was some national vaccine damage fund, which has paid out (he claims) $7B in damages over the years. That doesn’t sound like something he just invented out of whole cloth. Can someone give me the straight dope on it? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2019, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/655 "2019-03-11T22:45:01Z")
[National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program](https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html): "Vaccines save lives by preventing disease. Most people who get vaccines have no serious problems. Vaccines, like any medicines, can cause side effects, but most are very rare and very mild. Some health problems that follow vaccinations are not caused by vaccines. In very rare cases, a vaccine can cause a serious problem, such as a severe allergic reaction. In these instances, the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) may provide financial compensation to individuals who file a petition and are found to have been injured by a VICP-covered vaccine. Even in cases in which such a finding is not made, petitioners may receive compensation through a settlement." I _assume_ this is to take the financial risk off the pharma companies that produce the vaccines and the medical professionals who administer them. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2019, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/656 "2019-03-11T22:50:13Z")
Bad reactions to vaccines do occur. One reason for getting a medical exemption to vaccination is a history of a bad reaction. [Here is the website for the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program](https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html) One of the complications that comes up repeatedly is anaphylaxis - a severe allergic reaction which can be fatal, or cause lasting damage. Live polio vaccine is on the covered list even though so far as I know that is no longer used in the US, but it’s there because adults who suffered from the side effects are still alive and still allowed to seek compensation. Some potential complications can result in expensive hospitalizations even if the person later fully recovers. The fund has been in existence for 33 years at this point. It’s a no-fault system, so people who suffer complications of vaccines can be compensated without having to file a lawsuit. It also protects companies from enormous jury awards. [This wikipedia article has more information on the program](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Vaccine_Injury_Compensation_Program). It lists the total compensation over that time period as 1.7 billion, and average amount of awards per year, with the overall average award being about a half a million dollars. ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2019, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/657 "2019-03-11T22:57:28Z")
[Here](https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html) is a link for the National Vaccine Injury Prevention Program. In short, vaccines are not money makers for manufacturers or doctors. Profit margins on them are razor thin and with any medication there will always be somebody who is allergic or has a bad reaction. People are always going to sue and juries are always going to award large injuries for damages whether real or perceived. In order to keep manufacturers producing vaccines, the government set up a vaccine injury prevention program where those who are truly injured by vaccines can get compensated. (This was originally created because of children reacting badly to the pertussis vaccine). The money is paid by a tax on all vaccinations. In a way, it is similar to the Birth Injury Compensation Program we have in Virginia. In the past, even one bad outcome could lead to a multimillion dollar verdict, a loss of a physician’s insurance and inability to practice obstetrics. Currently, every physician in the state pays a yearly fee, as well as every hospital where babies are delivered. (The fee is of course 100x higher for those that deliver babies). If a child has a recognized birth injury they then are eligible for lifetime care. This assures that the children can get compensation without having to undergo a long and expensive legal battle and that the state will be able to maintain a supply of physicians willing to deliver babies there. Remember that nobody is saying that there is absolutely no harm from vaccines. The pertussis vaccine currently in use for children is much safer than the old vaccines and certainly safer than pertussis, but children still suffer brain damage from the vaccine. Under the current system, if they meet criteria they will be compensated. The reason for the large amount is the fact that lifelong care in this country is expensive. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2019, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/658 "2019-03-11T22:57:36Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I’m 100% pro-vax, and have basically zero patience for anyone anti-vax. However, one of my FB friends recently posted about how he had not vaccinated his (now 12-ish) son, and one thing he mentioned was some national vaccine damage fund, which has paid out (he claims) $7B in damages over the years. > > That doesn’t sound like something he just invented out of whole cloth. Can someone give me the straight dope on it? [https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html](https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html) > [@](#): > > The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program is a no-fault alternative to the traditional legal system for resolving vaccine injury petitions. > > It was created in the 1980s, after lawsuits against vaccine companies and health care providers threatened to cause vaccine shortages and reduce U.S. vaccination rates, which could have caused a resurgence of vaccine preventable diseases. [This financial info is old,](https://www.gao.gov/assets/670/667136.pdf) but indicates that the total amount in the fund in 2013 was about 3.2 billion dollars, and the fund amount was increasing slightly each year. The disbursements from the fund from 2009 to 2013 look to be about 200- 250 million dollars per year. So it looks like - yes, there is such a fund, (paid for by a surcharge of .75 cents to $2.25 per vaccine shot), and that this fund pays out about 200 -250 million per year, mostly for people who are claiming sore shoulders or allergic reactions. The $7 billion figure looks to be overstated. ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2019, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/659 "2019-03-11T23:13:19Z")
Let me just add that while the largest payouts from the VICP are for brain damage from Pertussis vaccination, the most recent studies have not shown a causal link. However, because there was a link assumed for years, especially with earlier versions of the vaccine, there were several large payouts. [Here](https://www.hrsa.gov/sites/default/files/vaccinecompensation/data/vicpmonthlyreporttemplate2_1_17.pdf) is a breakdown of all the awards paid so far. As you can see, the total is indeed 3.5 billion dollars for a total of 5214 claims total, making the average award $670,000. These are NOT people with sore arms. Also note that 80% are settled meaning that the government agrees to settle without definitive proof of harm. The statistics break down to approximately one paid settlement for every one million doses of vaccine given. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/660 "2019-03-12T01:00:22Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > [https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html](https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html) > > [This financial info is old,](https://www.gao.gov/assets/670/667136.pdf) but indicates that the total amount in the fund in 2013 was about 3.2 billion dollars, and the fund amount was increasing slightly each year. > > The disbursements from the fund from 2009 to 2013 look to be about 200- 250 million dollars per year. > > So it looks like - yes, there is such a fund, (paid for by a surcharge of .75 cents to $2.25 per vaccine shot), and that this fund pays out about 200 -250 million per year, mostly for people who are claiming sore shoulders or allergic reactions. > > The $7 billion figure looks to be overstated. I’m wondering about that, too. The site mentions that attorneys are entitled to be compensated, even when the patients/families do not receive an award, and that the statute forbids attorneys from seeking any payment from the clients. If awards to patients and families amount to $4B, attorneys’ fees in dismissed cases (plus successful petitions) could plausibly bring the total paid out by the program to $7B, no? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626.md?page=34)