# Anti-vaxxers are ignorant scumbags that kill children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 1, 2016, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626 "2016-09-01T01:59:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/661 "2019-03-12T01:45:49Z")
> [@](#): > > If awards to patients and families amount to $4B, attorneys’ fees in dismissed cases (plus successful petitions) could plausibly bring the total paid out by the program to $7B, no? Please see my link in the post above yours. It breaks down the awards and the attorney fees. The total is approximately $3.3B in awards and $200M in attorney’s fees for $3.5B total. Reposting [link](https://www.hrsa.gov/sites/default/files/vaccinecompensation/data/vicpmonthlyreporttemplate2_1_17.pdf) which breaks down attorney’s fees by settled cases versus dismissed cases. ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/662 "2019-03-12T01:55:20Z")
To be exact: Actual awards:\*\* $3,331,637,591.40\*\* Attorney’s fees:\*\* $156,332,962.90\*\* Interim Attorney’s fees:\*\* $25,243,039.69\*\* (presumably for ongoing cases) Attorney’s fees (dismissed cases): **$71,757,611.07** Total Outlays: **$3,584,971,205.06** ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/663 "2019-03-12T01:57:11Z")
I see. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/664 "2019-03-12T02:37:40Z")
Note that the “Vaccine Court” has a _lower_ standard of evidence than real court - making it much easier for people to get a settlement. If the injury claimed is listed in the table of known _possible_ injuries, then the claimants don’t have to prove causation, they just have to show that the injury happened after vaccination. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/665 "2019-03-12T19:40:26Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > As soon as you do that, it’s no longer UHC. The point of UHC is to provide health services, as needed because you’re sick, injured, etc. > > It’s not to become the basis for a life-style monitor by the government. But it is on the govt to encourage responsible behavior, which is why I also mentioned a fine for not vaccinating your kids. > [@](#): > > “You’ve been smoking for years. You’ll pay full freight for your COPD treatment.” And I paid a “sin tax” on that, both to discourage me from smoking, and to reimburse society for the costs that smoking imposes on society. The last time I was in Canada, I was still a smoker, and I remember that they were about twice the price as in the US. Are there not excise taxes levied on them? > [@](#): > > “The police concluded you were at fault in the car accident. Since it was your negligence that caused your injuries, you’re not covered.” While car insurance companies in the US will do this, I do agree that it would not be necessary, as everyone who drives can pay a fee or a tax that goes towards covering the cost of medical cost of car accidents. > [@](#): > > “Rock-climbing is an inherently dangerous sport. Your fall was caused by your own negligence, so you’ll have to pay full cost for the surgery to repair your leg.” I also have no problem with the idea that if you are going to be engaging in a particularly dangerous activity, that you pay a rider of some sort to offset the medical costs involved in that activity. > [@](#): > > No thanks. While I’m at it and I have the ear of the Queen of May, I’d go ahead and add in excise taxes to sugary drinks and unhealthy foods. > [@](#): > > The whole purpose of UHC is to provide health care, as needed, not to allow the government to start judging you and putting you on the hook for your health care costs because the government doesn’t approve of your lifestyle choices or your conduct in a particular situation. I see the point of UHC to be to spread out the risk pool to the largest it can really be, and to prevent misfortune from falling too heavily upon an individual. This does not mean that an individual should not be expected to take some sort of responsibility or accountability towards their health. Those who knowingly make decisions that will statistically increase the cost of their medical care should be expected to chip in a bit to discourage and offset that behavior. I’d rather discourage that behavior than outright prohibit it. I’d rather someone who sincerely believes that not vaccinating their child is the right thing to do be given a fiscal encouragement to change their mind, rather than making it a law that you _must_ have them done, which would result in arresting and locking up the parents for child neglect and abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/666 "2019-03-12T19:55:22Z")
Are you aware that some people really do view neglecting to vaccinate a child as both neglect and abuse? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/667 "2019-03-12T21:07:06Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Are you aware that some people really do view neglecting to vaccinate a child as both neglect and abuse? Yes. I tried to expound, but I really have no idea why the question or where you are going with it. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/668 "2019-03-12T21:21:29Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Are you aware that some people really do view neglecting to vaccinate a child as both neglect and abuse? My wife and I were talking about that over dinner tonight. My opening was a question about the poor six year old boy who suffered from tetanus and wracked up nearly a million in medical bills. Should he have been taken away from his parents? We agreed on no, but then my wife suggested that there be no government help for their huge hospital bills. I agreed, but I also suggested as with auto insurance, extra medical insurance be bought by parents of unvaccinated children. Such coverage would obviously be more expensive in areas where a good portion of the children were not immunized. But if the risk pool was large and diverse, a fairly accurate premium could be calculated. Obviously parents who neither vaccinated nor insured their children would be jailed if the child became seriously ill from a preventable disease and had no insurance. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/669 "2019-03-12T21:31:34Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > But it is on the govt to encourage responsible behavior, which is why I also mentioned a fine for not vaccinating your kids. > > And I paid a “sin tax” on that, both to discourage me from smoking, and to reimburse society for the costs that smoking imposes on society. The last time I was in Canada, I was still a smoker, and I remember that they were about twice the price as in the US. Are there not excise taxes levied on them? > > While car insurance companies in the US will do this, I do agree that it would not be necessary, as everyone who drives can pay a fee or a tax that goes towards covering the cost of medical cost of car accidents. > > I also have no problem with the idea that if you are going to be engaging in a particularly dangerous activity, that you pay a rider of some sort to offset the medical costs involved in that activity. > > While I’m at it and I have the ear of the Queen of May, I’d go ahead and add in excise taxes to sugary drinks and unhealthy foods. > I see the point of UHC to be to spread out the risk pool to the largest it can really be, and to prevent misfortune from falling too heavily upon an individual. This does not mean that an individual should not be expected to take some sort of responsibility or accountability towards their health. Those who knowingly make decisions that will statistically increase the cost of their medical care should be expected to chip in a bit to discourage and offset that behavior. > > I’d rather discourage that behavior than outright prohibit it. I’d rather someone who sincerely believes that not vaccinating their child is the right thing to do be given a fiscal encouragement to change their mind, rather than making it a law that you _must_ have them done, which would result in arresting and locking up the parents for child neglect and abuse. If only the consequences were confined to those individuals (or their children) who opted out of vaccinations! Unfortunately, their failure can cause illness and death to others. I wonder how hard it is prove where a case of measles, for instance, came from. In other words, in a wrongful death case concerning a baby who dies from measles, how hard is it to show by a preponderance of evidence that the source was unvaccinated person X? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/670 "2019-03-12T21:42:54Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yes. > > I tried to expound, but I really have no idea why the question or where you are going with it. It was your final paragraph. It seemed you were opposed to locking up abusive or neglectful parents. I don’t think that’s the appropriate first choice in many cases, but if the abuse/neglect if life threatening (see recent Oregon tetanus case) then jail time might, in fact, be an appropriate response. Or removing the biological parents as guardians in such a case and giving the child a new guardian who would actually look out for the child’s best interests. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/671 "2019-03-12T22:05:30Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > It was your final paragraph. It seemed you were opposed to locking up abusive or neglectful parents. I don’t think that’s the appropriate first choice in many cases, but if the abuse/neglect if life threatening (see recent Oregon tetanus case) then jail time might, in fact, be an appropriate response. Or removing the biological parents as guardians in such a case and giving the child a new guardian who would actually look out for the child’s best interests. You want my opinion, or what I think is politically feasible? My opinion: Vaccines should be mandatory for anyone that does not have a legitimate medical reason for not being able to take them. Parents who refuse to do so _should_ have the kids removed, as they are neglectful and abusive parents, and should be criminally prosecuted and fined for the danger that they pose to their kids. The ones who can truly profess ignorance can have their kids back once they have taken and passed a course called “Needles: They go in your kid’s arm”, but the ones who promote and advocate this bullshit need never be within 15 miles of a child again. But, then I feel the same way about indoctrinating kids into religion. Politically feasible: It is much better to create a fiscal discouragement. When it costs you nothing to skip your kid’s vaccine, then why not? If it actually does cost you something, then you may not be so quick to stand on principle. Would reduce, though not eliminate, this stupid fad of “vaccine hesitancy”. See if we can go somewhere from there. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/672 "2019-03-12T22:15:51Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Politically feasible: It is much better to create a fiscal discouragement. When it costs you nothing to skip your kid’s vaccine, then why not? If it actually does cost you something, then you may not be so quick to stand on principle. Would reduce, though not eliminate, this stupid fad of “vaccine hesitancy”. See if we can go somewhere from there. If abortion docs have to show pictures to discourage, maybe we have the vaccine doc show a different set of pictures to parents wanting to “opt out.” ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/673 "2019-03-12T22:44:18Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > If abortion docs have to show pictures to discourage, maybe we have the vaccine doc show a different set of pictures to parents wanting to “opt out.” You’re not the only one with [that idea](https://slate.com/technology/2019/03/public-health-strategy-vaccination-smoking-media-campaign.html). > [@](#): > > Starkly clinical images might indeed be difficult to see, but they’d help the vaccine-hesitant fully understand what they’re opting into by forgoing immunization. > … > To date, the visual campaign around increasing childhood vaccine coverage has been soft at best and self-sabotaging at worst. Infographics from the CDC feature cutesy drawings of cartoon children and winsome polka dots even while blaring grim statistics about morbidity and death rates. They warn parents that “measles isn’t just a little rash” while the accompanying adorable illustrations show it to be precisely that. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/674 "2019-03-12T23:25:31Z")
Another question: Is there any reason insurance companies couldn’t stipulate that they won’t pay for medical costs for illnesses preventable by vaccine unless there’s a medical reason for not vaccinating? I’m guessing there must be, or we’d already be seeing this, right? ---
**Author:** ![Quint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/76d3ee/32.png) [@Quint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quint)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/675 "2019-03-13T04:04:32Z")
Not sure if this has been posted yet, but it seems things are getting [sillier](https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/some-pet-owners-believe-vaccines-give-dogs-autism-vets-say-thats-untrue) ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/676 "2019-03-13T08:52:58Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Are you aware that some people really do view neglecting to vaccinate a child as both neglect and abuse? When your kid cuts himself on a rusty nail and you don’t get him a tetanus shot, I’d say that qualifies as neglect and abuse. Tetanus is an extremely painful way to die. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/677 "2019-03-13T15:05:37Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > When your kid cuts himself on a rusty nail and you don’t get him a tetanus shot, I’d say that qualifies as neglect and abuse. Tetanus is an extremely painful way to die. And also an extremely painful way to _almost_ die. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/678 "2019-03-13T18:39:17Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And also an extremely painful way to _almost_ die. Yes. I’m mentally adding photos of people in opisthotonos to the proposed “show them the results” idea to get parents to vaccinate. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/679 "2019-03-13T23:25:46Z")
Those who consider information an aid in making decisions about things in general, and avoiding risk of autism for your children, consider this [followup of several other large cohort studies on vaccination outcomes.](https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2727726/measles-mumps-rubella-vaccination-autism-nationwide-cohort-study) Check out the funding, as well, and the scholarly credentials. Then ask the anti-vax community to show you their credentials. Tris * * * It takes effort to be informed. Being mis-informed is much easier. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2019, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626/680 "2019-03-13T23:54:04Z")
The antivax crowd consider credentialed authoritues to be “in on the scam”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-vaxxers-are-ignorant-scumbags-that-kill-children/764626.md?page=35)