# Anti-War Views (bullshit) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 16, 2003, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-war-views-bullshit/155520 "2003-02-16T23:14:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-war-views-bullshit/155520/101 "2003-02-17T20:54:43Z")
**Gobear** , address the issues at hand instead of clutching at tangential straws. The reasoning behind various (Russian) intermediate companies trading Iraqi oil are incredibly transparent. Do you really want me to explain that to you, or will you be a smart boy and admit that it’s a handy cop-out of a government contract? Anyways, as said, it’s tangential. Evidence demonstrates that Iraq has stronger economic ties with the US than it has with any other nation in the world. Therefore, following your logic described in my last post, UN weapons inspectors with an American passport will be under more pressure of either the US government or US corporations to compromise their inspection task than their (European) colleagues. You either agree to the logical consequences of your statements and look like a complete fool, or admit that your initial acusation (namely, that European inspectors on the UN weapons inspections team in Iraq are likely doing a sloppy job because their homeland economies are dependant on Iraqi business, making a war undesirable) was downright _wrong_. Your call, my man. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-war-views-bullshit/155520/102 "2003-02-17T21:09:46Z")
> [@](#): > > Anyways, as said, it’s tangential. Evidence demonstrates that Iraq has stronger economic ties with the US than it has with any other nation in the world. Tangential? You said that the US is Iraq’s largest trading partner when your own sources demonstrate that the oil is obtained secondhand from Russian and French sources. Several countries have oil contracts that will be operational when sanctions are lifted, but the US does not. Moreover, to say “Evidence demonstrates that Iraq has stronger economic ties with the US than it has with any other nation in the world” is just plain disingenuous—buying Iraqi oil from France makes us a French trading partner, not an Iraqi one. The French are the ones getting rich off trading Iraqi oil, not the US. Now you have me curious to find out Shell’s exposure. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-war-views-bullshit/155520/103 "2003-02-17T21:12:06Z")
But to make you happy, I’ll retract my accusations against the unfairly maligned Europeans, who selflessly disregard all economic considerations in the pursuit of Iraqi WMDs. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-war-views-bullshit/155520/104 "2003-02-17T21:15:30Z")
So, **gobear** , the question _was_: do you take back your accusations towards the European contingent of the UN weapons inspections team? After answering that, I’ll gladly debate some more about why shady Russion oil traders delivering straight to Exxon equals US dependancy on Iraqi oil, plain and simple. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-war-views-bullshit/155520/105 "2003-02-17T21:15:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > **Beeblebrox, I couldn’t agree with you more. One does indeed not follow from the other. I was merely applying gobear’s logic (economic ties in the homeland create bias in UN weapons inspectors) to demonstrate that of all the inspectors, the US ones surely must be the most biased of them all, as almost half of Iraqi’s exports (that’s _all_ produce, not just oil) goes to the US, making it Iraq’s No. 1 trade partner by far.** Again, that logic doesn’t work. **gobear** said “business ties” - not total dollars. US companies have no pesky contracts and yet are getting the majority of the oil now. They don’t have a motive to supply pressure. They have what they want either way this turns out, so they don’t really care what the inspectors find. The European companies, however, hope for sanctions to be lifted _without_ a regime change so their contracts will not be voided. The only way for that to happen is for the weapons inspectors not to find anything. > [@](#): > > \*\*I obviously do NOT believe any of the UN inspectors would compromise their task because of pressure from their respective governments, be they American, European, or any other nationality. \*\* Yeah, I know. Please don’t misinterpret me and think that I am trying to nail a “US inspector bias” straw man to you. I am merely pointing out that your refutation of a faulty argument is also faulty. You can’t fix a leaking gas line with a broken wrench.\* \*you need plastic sheeting and duct tape for that 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-war-views-bullshit/155520/106 "2003-02-17T21:20:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*But to make you happy, I’ll retract my accusations against the unfairly maligned Europeans, who selflessly disregard all economic considerations in the pursuit of Iraqi WMDs. \*\* Thank you, even if you don’t even _pretend_ to mean it. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-war-views-bullshit/155520/107 "2003-02-17T21:23:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beeblebrox \* > **Again, that logic doesn’t work. gobear said “business ties” - not total dollars. US companies have no pesky contracts and yet are getting the majority of the oil now. They don’t have a motive to supply pressure. They have what they want either way this turns out, so they don’t really care what the inspectors find. The European companies, however, hope for sanctions to be lifted _without_ a regime change so their contracts will not be voided. The only way for that to happen is for the weapons inspectors not to find anything.** Ah, right. Good point. But in fairness, wouldn’t it be more accurate to accuse merely the weapons inspectors from nations _with actual Iraqi oil contracts_ of a potential bias? Surely, it’s not “all of Europe”. Let me see if I can find yet another source. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-war-views-bullshit/155520/108 "2003-02-17T21:33:02Z")
Alrighty, lookie [here](http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/oil/irqindx.htm): > [@](#): > > Iraq has the world’s second largest proven oil reserves. According to oil industry experts, new exploration will probably raise Iraq’s reserves to 2-300 billion barrels of high-grade crude, extraordinarily cheap to produce, leading to a gold-rush of profits for international oil firms in a post-Saddam setting. The four giant firms located in the US and the UK have been keen to get back into Iraq, from which they were excluded with the nationalization of 1972. They face companies from France, Russia, China, Japan and elsewhere, who already have major concessions. But in a post-war military governments, imposed by Washington, the US-UK companies expect to overcome their rivals and gain the most lucrative oil deals that will be worth hundreds of billions, even trillions of dollars in profits in the coming decades. So, we see countries like the UK and France named here as having “major concessions”. I’ll look some more, but two countries doesn’t constitute the entire continent. Especially if one of them is a clear US ally, and obviously not instructing its inspectors to do a tardy job. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-war-views-bullshit/155520/109 "2003-02-17T21:34:14Z")
> [@](#): > > But in fairness, wouldn’t it be more accurate to accuse merely the weapons inspectors from nations with actual Iraqi oil contracts of a potential bias? Surely, it’s not “all of Europe”. Let me see if I can find yet another source To be completely honest, it’s not “all Europeans”–China, France, and Russia are the three countries with the greatest total contracts with Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-war-views-bullshit/155520/110 "2003-02-17T21:40:12Z")
Well, there you go. So you’re talking about French inspectors, then? Also, in my last post I said the UK already has major concessions, which is obviously incorrect, as the quote demonstrates. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-war-views-bullshit/155520/111 "2003-02-18T03:58:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tars Tarkas \* > \*\*And you are giving Al-Qaeda a huge propaganda coup. Your prowar sentiments will be used by Al-Qaeda (the real threat) to recruit more members. It is being used RIGHT NOW to recruit more members. They will kill Americans. Sleep well at night, hopefully your duct tape and garbage bags keeps you safe… \*\* Do you listen to modern music? Support gay rights? Think women shouldn’t have to dress like Klansman? Guess what, those things also get the Islamist fundies steamed. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2003, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-war-views-bullshit/155520/112 "2003-02-18T05:32:07Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by gobear_ > Al Qaeda will recruit more members no matter what the US does. And as I said I’m not pro-war as much as I am anti-more useless inspections. Show me an alternative. I was attempting to point out that protestors aren’t the only ones being used for propoganda. It’s all about the spin. in general, i hope saddam eats a bullet, i am just sick of being lied to by idiots like Brutus as for why we are going to war. This supposed “caring for the oppressed people” line is a pile of crap so high Sir Edmund Hillary couldn’t climb it. Give me some evidence for Al-Qaeda connections that aren’t vague guesses. This just comes off as the US on an oil quest. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\*Do you listen to modern music? Support gay rights? Think women shouldn’t have to dress like Klansman? Guess what, those things also get the Islamist fundies steamed. \*\* Invading Iraq gets moderates steamed. And there are a lot more of them. Not like you care, too busy masterbating raw to CNN fotage of bombs dropping on Iraq. Have you proposed to Wolf Blitzer yet? You can make your wedding dress out of Duck tape and saran wrap! Then when you run from the church, the attendees throw anthrax… ---
**Author:** ![ElwoodCuse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/edb3f5/32.png) [@ElwoodCuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElwoodCuse)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2003, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-war-views-bullshit/155520/113 "2003-02-20T04:08:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\*Do you listen to modern music? Support gay rights? Think women shouldn’t have to dress like Klansman? Guess what, those things also get the Islamist fundies steamed. \*\* Not to mention certain Christian fundamentalists. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anti-war-views-bullshit/155520.md?page=5)