# Antibody Production Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 4, 2015, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antibody-production-question/711783 "2015-02-04T01:23:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antibody-production-question/711783/1 "2015-02-04T01:23:24Z")
I’m arguing with someone on a different board about vaccination schedules for kids, and she has come up with an argument that I haven’t seen before, and I’m not able to find any information about it online. > [@](#): > > …No, I was aware of the CDC message. I decided to dig for myself and talk to my doctors. He was the one that came up with the adjusted schedule… > To be completely honest, there is a bit of study on whether vaccinations leave even healthy adults immunocompromised due to the way that the T2 is stimulated to force antibody production… Any idea what she’s talking about? Do healthy adults actually become immunocompromised due to the way that the T2 is stimulated to force antibody production? What does that even mean? ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antibody-production-question/711783/2 "2015-02-04T01:45:40Z")
Vaccinations don’t “force” immunity any more than diseases themselves do. If you want insight in exactly how each vaccine on the current schedule (as well as some that aren’t, like rabies and smallpox) read Paul Offit’s _Vaccinated: One Man’s Quest to Defeat the World’s Deadliest Diseases_. It’s partially a biography of a man named Maurice Hilleman, the research doctor who developed most of the current vaccines in use. Yep. One person is responsible for about 75% of the vaccines in use. The book also touches on the history of vaccinations (Jenner, et al.) and mentions things like the Cutter incident, but mainly what lay people will get out of the book is a technical understanding of how vaccines work. That post you read looked like a word salad to me, but I have contacted two of my cousins, one who is an MD with a family practice, and one who has a Ph.D in biochemistry, and studies viruses. The second one probably knows the most, but she is in the middle of planning her wedding, so I don’t know how soon she can get back to me. I know a few people who try to link, unsuccessfully, an immune disorder called neutropenia with vaccines, but it’s a white cell deficiency, and at any rate, some people experience a mild, transient form of it following viral infections (if you ever heard of someone being prescribed an antibiotic for a viral infection, it’s probably someone who gets this), so vaccines probably prevent it rather than cause it. Anyway, that’s the closest thing I’ve ever heard to vaccines being linked to immuno-suppression. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antibody-production-question/711783/3 "2015-02-04T01:57:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Any idea what she’s talking about? no, and she has no idea either. don’t waste your time arguing with her, and keep your kids (if you have any) far away from hers. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Stilettos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/fbc32d/32.png) [@Red\_Stilettos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Stilettos)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antibody-production-question/711783/4 "2015-02-04T02:22:17Z")
If I had to guess, I would say T2 is referring to the Th2 immune response which is part of antibody production. Th2 is a type of T helper cell which, as its name suggests, helps other immune cells mount a proper response. I’ve never heard of a Th2 response driving immunosuppression. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antibody-production-question/711783/5 "2015-02-04T02:26:34Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > \ read Paul Offit’s _Vaccinated: One Man’s Quest to Defeat the World’s Deadliest Diseases_. \ That’s a good idea. Thanks for all the responses - I had a feeling she was talking out of her ass. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antibody-production-question/711783/6 "2015-02-04T07:22:59Z")
> [@Red\_Stilettos](#): > > If I had to guess, I would say T2 is referring to the Th2 immune response which is part of antibody production. Th2 is a type of T helper cell which, as its name suggests, helps other immune cells mount a proper response. I’ve never heard of a Th2 response driving immunosuppression. Or the T2 antibodies that are part of several tests for diseases, HIV for one. At any rate, I think she’s quoting something out of context, and has gotten it wrong, and has no idea what she’s talking about. She may have gotten some vestige of one of the old theories that HIV was introduced to Africa deliberately in MMR vaccines. Actually, there was some concern once that HIV could have contaminated, IIRC, HepB vaccines (I think it was HepB-- maybe it was something else, but it doesn’t really matter for this story) because they used human serum in the research, which was conducted in the mid-70s on samples from infected people, and later, when HIV was discovered, the high rate of co-morbidity of HIV and HepB was cause for concern, but it turned out that the attenuating and filtering process had gotten rid of any HIV that might have been present. I can’t find the book to double-check the story and am repeating from memory, so sorry if I got a detail wrong; my point is, I can imagine several ways the poster the OP quoted lifted a detail from one of these stories and got it turned around to confuse tests for disease with tests for vaccine titers, or something. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antibody-production-question/711783/7 "2015-02-04T07:45:15Z")
OK. Did some unpleasant browsing on anti-vax sites. It seems she’s talking about helper-T cells. This is part of the belief some anti-vaxxers have that “natural immunity” (ie, getting a disease) is better for you than a vaccine. Vaccines, so it goes, produce “artificial” immunity, and are bad for your immune system in the long run, because the “toxins” in them do your immune system more harm than good, according to one site I found. I can find no suggestion of a mechanism in the long run, other than “toxins,” just quotes that certain percentages of vaccinated people, amounting to large numbers of people, get immune system disorders. Given the high number of vaccinated people, you could probably find high numbers of immune disorders among people who drink orange juice, or were born in a hospital. Don’t bother to argue with this person. She’s just trying to find reasons for something she already made up her mind about. But you knew that. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antibody-production-question/711783/8 "2015-02-04T19:39:24Z")
I took one for the team and was arguing with anti-vaxxers for a while yesterday - my brain hurts! I was busy addressing the idea that 30 vaccinations would be too much for a child’s immune system, so either you should just skip them, or you should do them on an adjusted schedule. I guess we all have to wade into anti-vaxx territory once in a while, so we know the enemy. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antibody-production-question/711783/9 "2015-02-05T00:34:37Z")
She has responded to my request for citations for this information: > [@](#): > > This is based on a quick search, so by no means exhaustive, but I’m sure you know that aluminum is used in vaccinations to spur T2 cells into creating antibodies. This hyper stimulates one of three of the branches of the immune system. > > [Impact of aluminum exposure on the immune system: A mini review - ScienceDirect](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1382668912001676) > > From another source (possible anti-vaxxer source so I take with a grain of salt) Aluminum is a heavy metal with known neurotoxic effects on human and animal nervous systems. It can be found in the following childhood vaccines – DTaP, Pediarix (DTaP-Hepatitis B-Polio combination), Pentacel (DTaP-HIB-Polio combination), Hepatitis A, Hepatitis B, Haemophilus influenzae B (HIB), Human Papilloma Virus (HPV), and Pneumococcal vaccines. > > This one is from the NIH describing the lack of research into the effects of neurotoxic adjuvants on the immune system. > > [Aluminum vaccine adjuvants: are they safe? - PubMed](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21568886) ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antibody-production-question/711783/10 "2015-02-05T01:22:37Z")
> [@](#): > > This one is from the NIH describing the lack of research into the effects of neurotoxic adjuvants on the immune system. That’s actually a link to an abstract on NIH’s (NCBI) PubMed database: > [@](#): > > Curr Med Chem. 2011;18(17):2630-7. > Aluminum vaccine adjuvants: are they safe? > Tomljenovic L1, Shaw CA. > Author information > > ``` > 1Neural Dynamics Research Group, Department of Ophthalmology and Visual Sciences, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, BC, V5Z 1L8, Canada. lucijat77@gmail.com > > ``` > > Abstract > > Aluminum is an experimentally demonstrated neurotoxin and the most commonly used vaccine adjuvant. Despite almost 90 years of widespread use of aluminum adjuvants, medical science’s understanding about their mechanisms of action is still remarkably poor. There is also a concerning scarcity of data on toxicology and pharmacokinetics of these compounds. In spite of this, the notion that aluminum in vaccines is safe appears to be widely accepted. Experimental research, however, clearly shows that aluminum adjuvants have a potential to induce serious immunological disorders in humans. In particular, aluminum in adjuvant form carries a risk for autoimmunity, long-term brain inflammation and associated neurological complications and may thus have profound and widespread adverse health consequences. In our opinion, the possibility that vaccine benefits may have been overrated and the risk of potential adverse effects underestimated, has not been rigorously evaluated in the medical and scientific community. We hope that the present paper will provide a framework for a much needed and long overdue assessment of this highly contentious medical issue. So, it’s actually from some people at Univ of BC, not NIH. Interesting that your person doesn’t understand what PubMed is. The other article is a review behind a paywall. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2015, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antibody-production-question/711783/11 "2015-02-05T02:43:21Z")
Okay, more research done - it sounds like there is a question about how the aluminum in vaccines does what it does, but it seems like they’ve been using it for quite a while with no notable adverse effects. As for aluminum as a heavy metal and should not be put in your body, to start with, aluminum salts (aluminum hydroxide, aluminum phosphate, or potassium aluminum sulfate) are used, not, like, aluminum foil. Also, the amounts you’d be taking in with vaccines would be minute. I don’t think she has much of a scientific leg to stand on. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antibody-production-question/711783/12 "2015-02-06T16:28:45Z")
> [@](#): > > This one is from the NIH describing the lack of research into the effects of neurotoxic adjuvants on the immune system. > > [Aluminum vaccine adjuvants: are they safe? - PubMed](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21568886) So, I had CNN on this morning and at about 10 mins to 10am they did a piece on the measles. They mentioned the study linked above and it appears it was funded by anti-vaxxer foundations. I found the pdf of the article here: [http://www.meerwetenoverfreek.nl/images/stories/Tomljenovic\_Shaw-CMC-published.pdf](http://www.meerwetenoverfreek.nl/images/stories/Tomljenovic_Shaw-CMC-published.pdf) and in the _Acknowledgements_ section they state: > [@](#): > > This work was supported by the Katlyn Fox Foundation, the > Dwoskin Family Foundation and the Lotus Foundation. These appear to be anti-vaccine groups: [I’m not familiar with this blog, so I can’t vouch with how reliable it is] Thursday, August 15, 2013 [A Snapshot of the Deep Pockets of the Anti-Vaccine Movement](http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2013/08/a-snapshot-of-deep-pockets-of-anti.html) > [@](#): > > **The Dwoskin Family Foundation** > > The Dwoskin Family Foundation is a philanthropic vehicle for Albert and Lisa Claire Dwoskin. \ > > Claire Dwoskin is a board member of the anti-vaccine group National Vaccination Information Center. Her husband, Albert, is president and CEO of A.J. Dwoskin & Associates, Inc. Through their foundation, they funded The Greater Good Movie, giving $25,000 to the project in 2010. **Two years ago, they made two donations to the American Foundation for University of British Columbia, academic home to Shaw and Tomljenovic.** One contribution, for $10,000, was just for “general expenses”. The more significant donation was for lab costs for the “Aluminum Toxicity Project”, for which they donated $125,000. This is in addition to approximately $200,000 for NVIC. > > In 2011, the Dwoskins also underwrote the anti-vaccine “safety” conference in Jamaica. As Matt Carey notes, the venue was not exactly a frugal choice. The family, along with several other organizations, paid out a fair bit of change to cover the costs of the conference. Speakers included the aforementioned Christopher Shaw and Lucija Tomljenovic, as well as several individuals that have been described as quacks or cranks: Dr. Russell Blaylock, Dr. Richard Deth, founder of the antivaccine NVIC, Barbara Loe Fisher, and the disgraced Andrew Wakefield. [My bold] Shaw and Tomljenovic are the authors of the linked UBC study, and: > [@](#): > > Such is the case with a new study by Christopher Shaw and Lucija Tomljenovic, titled Administration of aluminium to neonatal mice in vaccine-relevant amounts is associated with adverse long term neurological outcomes (back in December 2011, Orac pointed out the flaws of the study [Edited to add February 5, 2015: the study Orac discussed formed the basis for the 2013 study I discuss here.]). This study received significant funding from The Dwoskin Family Foundation and the Katlyn Fox Foundation, both of which have funded previous studies by one or both of this duo. Also: > [@](#): > > **The Katlyn Fox Foundation** > > Although it lists itself on its web site as a not-for-profit charitable orgnization, the foundation is not registered with the Canada Revenue Agency. Since they are not registered as a charity, unlike the Dwoskin Family Foundation, their financial filings are not available. In addition to the latest article from Shaw and Tomljenovic, the Katlyn Fox Foundation has been supporting them since at least 2011. > > Although I had difficulty finding why the Dwoskins got involved in the anti-vaccine movement, the Katlyn Fox Foundation makes it quite clear why they are anti-vaccine activists. From their “About” page: > > ``` > On the afternoon of August 16th 2001, our precious little girl Katlyn passed away in her sleep. She was only 22 months old. After conversations with various medical professionals and through extensive personal research we believe that Katlyn passed away due to complications from vaccines. > > ``` > > I won’t talk about their account, as I don’t have any of the details. My heart does go out to them for the loss of their daughter. No parent should have to go through anything like that. I do think that their crusade against vaccines is misplaced, though, and how far they have gone down the anti-vaccine rabbit hole is evident from the posts on the foundation’s site. > > The foundation reproduces stories from such dubious sources as Natural News, NVIC, Suzanne Humphries and similar folk with established histories of playing fast and free with reality. Despite their mission to “provide parents with the best possible information about vaccines, so that they can make informed decisions on whether or not vaccines are suitable for their children”, they instead promote myths and misinformation. Now, isn’t one of the criticisms of research funded by “BigPharma” is that it returns the exact favorable results that the pharma company wants and so can’t be trusted? Some of these people could use a look in the mirror. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antibody-production-question/711783/13 "2015-02-06T16:37:44Z")
Tomljenovic and Shaw (a pair of opthalmologists with a, um, keen interest in vaccines), have churned out a quantity of [poorly received and debunked research](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/10/31/and-now-death-by-gardasil-again-not-so-fast/) in recent years purporting to show vaccines cause autism, death, hemorrhoids etc. etc. They rank barely above the Geiers in terms of [credibility](http://sciblogs.co.nz/diplomaticimmunity/2013/05/02/more-pseudo-scientific-garbage-from-tomljenovic-and-shaw/). ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antibody-production-question/711783/14 "2015-02-06T17:01:34Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Tomljenovic and Shaw (a pair of opthalmologists with a, um, keen interest in vaccines), have churned out a quantity of [poorly received and debunked research](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/10/31/and-now-death-by-gardasil-again-not-so-fast/) in recent years purporting to show vaccines cause autism, death, hemorrhoids etc. etc. > > They rank barely above the Geiers in terms of [credibility](http://sciblogs.co.nz/diplomaticimmunity/2013/05/02/more-pseudo-scientific-garbage-from-tomljenovic-and-shaw/). Thanks for the links. I wasn’t familiar with them, but it took all of about five minutes to see they weren’t really legit. I can just see **Cat Whisperer’s** arguer sputtering “But,…but, they’re from NIH! Their abstract is on a [nih.gov](http://nih.gov) website!” It reminds me of a time in grad school when another student said to our journal club: “This paper is from Harvard, so you know it must be good.” ---
**Author:** ![boffking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@boffking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boffking)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antibody-production-question/711783/15 "2015-02-06T17:02:59Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Okay, more research done - it sounds like there is a question about how the aluminum in vaccines does what it does, but it seems like they’ve been using it for quite a while with no notable adverse effects. > > As for aluminum as a heavy metal and should not be put in your body, to start with, aluminum salts (aluminum hydroxide, aluminum phosphate, or potassium aluminum sulfate) are used, not, like, aluminum foil. Also, the amounts you’d be taking in with vaccines would be minute. > > I don’t think she has much of a scientific leg to stand on. Aluminum is not a heavy metal. Part of why it is used so much in industry is because it is so light. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antibody-production-question/711783/16 "2015-02-08T04:04:04Z")
Aluminum phosphide is toxic in large amounts, but I don 't think that’s what is used in vaccines, anyway. It’s used as a pesticide for stored grain in India, where it apparently has become a popular suicide drug, consumed directly from the container. I don’t think there are problems with grain it has been used on, though, as long as the directions are followed, because very little is used at once, and it dissipates. Aluminum, however, has no biological use for humans-- it’s not a necessary mineral, like iron or copper, and because it can be toxic in certain forms, it gets classified as toxic, so it makes lists of “heavy metals” sometimes, since people equate heavy metals with “toxic.” Obviously, some heavy metals, like iron, are essential for life, and others are harmless. Using “heavy” as a byword for “toxic” is a misnomer. Boffking is right, that aluminum is very light. Aluminum phosphide can be abused --\> some form of aluminum is in vaccines --\> vaccines are bad is just “Bridges are made of paper” thinking again.