# Any adult no matter how unintelligent or ill informed should have a vote. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 17, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-adult-no-matter-how-unintelligent-or-ill-informed-should-have-a-vote/561003 "2010-11-17T18:27:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-adult-no-matter-how-unintelligent-or-ill-informed-should-have-a-vote/561003/41 "2010-11-18T17:16:08Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > We should have mandatory voting with a fine for not doing it. Everyone of legal age must vote in order to have any input at all in a process that effects their lives . There are always excuses to not go through the trouble. They should be forced to vote. And precisely what would that accomplish, aside from fulfilling a nebulous philosophical point in the value of participation for the sake of participation? This is analogous to the people who argue that “freedom of religion is not freedom from religion,” and that everyone should worship (and generally from a narrow selection of permissible deities). There were several nations in the former East Bloc that had mandatory voting. And as you could only vote for the Party candidate, it was both democratic and autocratic at the same time. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-adult-no-matter-how-unintelligent-or-ill-informed-should-have-a-vote/561003/42 "2010-11-18T18:21:50Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Yeah Churchill had it right when he said, and I am sure this is an exact quote, “Democracy sucks, man, it just sucks less than all of the other shit we’ve tried.” I hate it when posters don’t bother to do a simple search to make sure they quote accurately. The word Churchill used was “shite”, _not_ “shit”. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-adult-no-matter-how-unintelligent-or-ill-informed-should-have-a-vote/561003/43 "2010-11-18T19:03:25Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > The problem isn’t with intellegent voters, it’s with people who put their own interest ahead of that of society. And I do this, and 99% of the people do to. Which brings us full circle to one of the fundamental points of Hardin’s, supposedly discredited, article. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-adult-no-matter-how-unintelligent-or-ill-informed-should-have-a-vote/561003/44 "2010-11-18T19:24:47Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I would posit the following set questions and Answers > > Q: what is the purpose of an election. > > A: The purpose of an election is to two-fold 1) to produce the best leader possible, 2) to provide for a smooth transition of power that will be accepted by the citizens. WRONG!! 🙂 The purpose of an election is for the people to choose a person to govern them, based on whatever criteria a given person finds important. Bad leaders can arise from good democratic practice. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-adult-no-matter-how-unintelligent-or-ill-informed-should-have-a-vote/561003/45 "2010-11-18T19:40:29Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Q: What is the best possible leader? > > A: The one which benefits the greatest number of citizens. > > Q: How do we determine this? > > A: If the electorate is fully informed and votes according to its own interest then the candidate that receives the most votes will be the best. Unfortunately it doesn’t work that way, even if the electorate is fully informed. Suppose you have five citizens, and two more people who are candidates. (Candidates don’t get a vote in this scenario.) Suppose candidate A will benefit all five citizens by one point. Suppose candidate B will benefit three citizens by two points, and two citizens by no points. The vote, in this case, assuming the electorate is fully informed and each of its members is voting in her own interest, will be three to two for candidate B. But candidate B does not benefit the greatest number of citizens. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-adult-no-matter-how-unintelligent-or-ill-informed-should-have-a-vote/561003/46 "2010-11-18T19:41:37Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I agree entirely, and I’ve been a tireless advocate for shutting down failing public schools and moving as many kids as possible into charter, private, or home schooling where they can actually get an education. Unfortunately, serious progress in that direction has only been made in a few cities and states. And just how will shutting down public schools make all these great schools, not to mention all these great students, magically appear? And won’t the result be a worsening of the elitism divide, with many kids receiving no education whatsoever because their schools have been shut down? I think what’s underlying this thread is religious-based opposition to family planning and religious-based support for private schools. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-adult-no-matter-how-unintelligent-or-ill-informed-should-have-a-vote/561003/47 "2010-11-18T20:27:11Z")
Didn’t we try this for a long time? Weren’t the white, land-holding males over 21, who were the only people originally allowed to vote in the US, quite a bit more educated and informed than the ignorant, disenfranchised women and blacks? The end result, however, was that women and blacks got the shaft. (Of course, they had the shaft beforehand, which is why they were both ignorant and barred from voting… it was a vicious cycle.) The point is that no matter who is excluded from voting, there will be government bias against them on the part of (or at least allowed by) the group that gets to vote. For example. Right now children are essentially slaves, with no legal ability to make their own decisions at all. And it isn’t like this is some reviled underclass; everybody loves kids! So we end up with plenty of consideration by voters for the safety of children, but very little for their civil rights, and none at all for their freedom. Whether or not you agree with the situation, do you really think children would have voted for this outcome had they been given the choice? A similar outcome, I guarantee, will meet whichever disenfranchised groups have been targeted as “uneducated and uninformed”, no matter how cute and cuddly they are and no matter how the rest of us cherish them. It will only make it worse if these are groups we all look down on, like the homeless, mentally ill, criminals and atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-adult-no-matter-how-unintelligent-or-ill-informed-should-have-a-vote/561003/48 "2010-11-18T21:47:24Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Didn’t we try this for a long time? Weren’t the white, land-holding males over 21, who were the only people originally allowed to vote in the US, quite a bit more educated and informed than the ignorant, disenfranchised women and blacks? The end result, however, was that women and blacks got the shaft. Didn’t we try Democracy As We Know It already? Wasn’t the end result that the Nazi Party got elected? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-adult-no-matter-how-unintelligent-or-ill-informed-should-have-a-vote/561003/49 "2010-11-18T22:01:24Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > And just how will shutting down public schools make all these great schools, not to mention all these great students, magically appear? I didnt say that I advocate shutting down public schools. I said that I advocate shutting down failing public schools. Better luck with your next attempt to smear me by misrepresenting what I say. > [@](#): > > And won’t the result be a worsening of the elitism divide, with many kids receiving no education whatsoever because their schools have been shut down? Exactly the opposite. At the moment, the ‘elitism divide’ exists because some children, chiefly in private schools and in the best public school districts, get a good education, while others, most notably in inner-city public schools, get no education at all because they’re in public schools. (On the later point, [there’s no need to take my word for it.](http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_26.htm)) The action of shutting down failing public schools and moving the students to better schools while the old ones get overhauled and reinvented has been tried in several cities in the past few years. The results have been so good that, unsurprisingly, the idea is being discussed in quite a few places, much to the distress of teachers unions. President Obama has budgeted several billions dollars to help states with the process. > [@](#): > > I think what’s underlying this thread is religious-based opposition to family planning and religious-based support for private schools. Do you always thing that what’s underlying a thread is topics that have no relationship whatsoever to that that thread, or just in this particular case? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-adult-no-matter-how-unintelligent-or-ill-informed-should-have-a-vote/561003/50 "2010-11-18T22:02:37Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Didn’t we try Democracy As We Know It already? Wasn’t the end result that the Nazi Party got elected? Um, no. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-adult-no-matter-how-unintelligent-or-ill-informed-should-have-a-vote/561003/51 "2010-11-18T22:16:21Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Um, no. Elaborate ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-adult-no-matter-how-unintelligent-or-ill-informed-should-have-a-vote/561003/52 "2010-11-18T22:20:26Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > WRONG!! 🙂 > > The purpose of an election is for the people to choose a person to govern them, based on whatever criteria a given person finds important. > > Bad leaders can arise from good democratic practice. > [@Frylock](#): > > Unfortunately it doesn’t work that way, even if the electorate is fully informed. > > Suppose you have five citizens, and two more people who are candidates. (Candidates don’t get a vote in this scenario.) Suppose candidate A will benefit all five citizens by one point. Suppose candidate B will benefit three citizens by two points, and two citizens by no points. > > The vote, in this case, assuming the electorate is fully informed and each of its members is voting in her own interest, will be three to two for candidate B. But candidate B does not benefit the greatest number of citizens. I admit I was being a bit too glib in my post. My main goal with the questions was to set up an idealized situation that seemed to me to be the basis behind the theory of democratic government, so that we could analyze whether inclusion of uninformed individuals helped or hurt the system. I should also say that when I speak of people voting their own interests I don’t necessarily just mean direct interest. For example I consider paying taxes to support welfare to be in my best interest because I don’t like others to suffer. Also I know that there is no perfect voting system since it fails to take into account strength of favor, multiple issues etc. etc. But since not alternative weighted voting schemes are being suggested I thought that this simple metric would be a to evaluate the effectiveness of alternative voter inclusion scenarios. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-adult-no-matter-how-unintelligent-or-ill-informed-should-have-a-vote/561003/53 "2010-11-18T22:28:44Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > We should have mandatory voting with a fine for not doing it. Everyone of legal age must vote in order to have any input at all in a process that effects their lives . There are always excuses to not go through the trouble. They should be forced to vote. > > Wiki says 32 countries have mandatory voting. I think this is a bad idea. When I voted in a recent election I didn’t vote for anyone on the school board. I have no children and so it doesn’t affect me directly, and further I didn’t know anyone on the ballot. Sure I could have filled in names at random, but then my vote might have canceled out someone who actually did care and was informed. See also the nomination of Alvin Greene NC. Voters should at the very least show enough knowledge about the candidates to form an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-adult-no-matter-how-unintelligent-or-ill-informed-should-have-a-vote/561003/54 "2010-11-18T22:36:29Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Elaborate Presumably he means because Hitler was appointed Chancellor by the President of Germany in spite of, or perhaps because of, the fact that the Nazi’s seemed to have passed their peak among the rank and file voters, and then proceeded through a variety of criminal acts to seize totalitarian power. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-adult-no-matter-how-unintelligent-or-ill-informed-should-have-a-vote/561003/55 "2010-11-18T22:47:48Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > Presumably he means because Hitler was appointed Chancellor by the President of Germany in spite of, or perhaps because of, the fact that the Nazi’s seemed to have passed their peak among the rank and file voters, and then proceeded through a variety of criminal acts to seize totalitarian power. The Nazi party had by far the largest share of the vote, as well as the support of enough other parties to form a majority government. A coalition government with Hitler as Chancellor was all perfectly democratic. It’s what happened afterwards that was undemocratic. In any case, I feel I need to spell out my point, lest it get lost. The argument that “The last time there was voter exams, it was to keep black people from voting” is specious. Democracy As We Know It has a blemished history and is also open to abuse. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-adult-no-matter-how-unintelligent-or-ill-informed-should-have-a-vote/561003/56 "2010-11-18T23:18:09Z")
Well, opinions vary > [@](#): > > On 20 July 1932, the Prussian government was ousted by a coup — the Preussenschlag, and a few days later at the July 1932 Reichstag election the Nazis made another leap forward, polling 37.4% and becoming the largest party in the Reichstag by a wide margin. Furthermore, the Nazis and the KPD between them won 52% of the vote and a majority of seats. **Since both parties opposed the established political system, and neither would join or support any ministry, this made the formation of a majority government impossible.** The result was weak ministries governing by decree. Under Comintern directives, the KPD maintained its policy of treating the SPD as the main enemy, calling them “social fascists”, thereby splintering opposition to the Nazis.[40] Later, both the SPD and the KPD accused each other of having facilitated Hitler’s rise to power by their unwillingness to compromise. > > Chancellor Franz von Papen called another Reichstag election in November, hoping to find a way out of this impasse. The electoral result was the same, with the Nazis and the KPD winning 50% of the vote between them and more than half the seats, rendering this Reichstag no more workable than its predecessor. \*\*But support for the Nazis had fallen to 33.1%, suggesting that the Nazi surge had passed its peak \*\*– possibly because the worst of the Depression had passed, possibly because some middle-class voters had supported Hitler in July as a protest, but had now drawn back from the prospect of actually putting him into power. **The Nazis interpreted the result as a warning that they must seize power before their moment passed**. Had the other parties united, this could have been prevented, but their shortsightedness made a united front impossible. Papen, his successor Kurt von Schleicher, and the nationalist press magnate Alfred Hugenberg spent December and January in political intrigues that eventually persuaded President Hindenburg \*\*it was safe to appoint Hitler Reich Chancellor at the head of a cabinet including only a minority of Nazi ministers \*\*— which he did on 30 January 1933. Bolding mine 'course, that’s just Wiki > **[Nazi Party](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party#Rise_to_power:_1925.E2.80.931933)** > > Final Solution > Pre-Machtergreifung > Post-Machtergreifung ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-adult-no-matter-how-unintelligent-or-ill-informed-should-have-a-vote/561003/57 "2010-11-18T23:28:03Z")
What part of what I said do you dispute? ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-adult-no-matter-how-unintelligent-or-ill-informed-should-have-a-vote/561003/58 "2010-11-18T23:44:02Z")
I dunno, I thought this > [@Mijin](#): > > The Nazi party had by far the largest share of the vote, as well as the support of enough other parties to form a majority government. was a dispute of my statement that ‘the Nazi’s seemed to have passed their peak among the rank and file voters,’ so I linked to the source. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-adult-no-matter-how-unintelligent-or-ill-informed-should-have-a-vote/561003/59 "2010-11-19T00:04:14Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > I dunno, I thought this was a dispute of my statement that ‘the Nazi’s seemed to have passed their peak among the rank and file voters,’ so I linked to the source. No, I wouldn’t have disputed that – the party did indeed lose seats prior to Hitler being made Chancellor. My dispute was with **ITR Champion** ’s “refutation” of “um, no”, which you seemed to be supporting. _anyway_ The only reason for opening this can of worms, was to make the point that if voting tests have a blemished history, so do elections. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-adult-no-matter-how-unintelligent-or-ill-informed-should-have-a-vote/561003/60 "2010-11-19T00:12:39Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > _anyway_ > The only reason for opening this can of worms, was to make the point that if voting tests have a blemished history, so do elections. Indisputably 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-adult-no-matter-how-unintelligent-or-ill-informed-should-have-a-vote/561003.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-adult-no-matter-how-unintelligent-or-ill-informed-should-have-a-vote/561003.md?page=4)