# Any Boeing B-17 Fans out there? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 22, 2009, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-boeing-b-17-fans-out-there/497264 "2009-05-22T02:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-boeing-b-17-fans-out-there/497264/21 "2009-05-22T13:26:35Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > What model is that, an E or an F? It looks as if the mounts for the cheek guns are built out from the nose (if that makes sense), which would most likely make it a G. ---
**Author:** ![Rocketeer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocketeer/32/4437_2.png) [@Rocketeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rocketeer)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-boeing-b-17-fans-out-there/497264/22 "2009-05-22T13:33:29Z")
'Taint a G unless it has the chin turret, and that one doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-boeing-b-17-fans-out-there/497264/23 "2009-05-22T13:58:55Z")
I love WW 1 aircraft. In London, I went to the Imperial War Museum and saw a Camel- it was so tiny. Those guys were crazy to fly that (apart from its legendary pig like manners). ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-boeing-b-17-fans-out-there/497264/24 "2009-05-22T14:09:56Z")
[quote=“1920s Style “Death Ray”, post:14, topic:497264”] Ah yes, the Spitfire is definitely prettier. The Mustang is very cool, but it’s not pretty in the way a Spitfire is. This is assuming the Spitfire is a more traditional model such as a MkV with full wingtips. [/quote] I talked to a guy who owned a P-51D and a two-seat Spitfire Mk.IX (the one with the extra bubble on the turtledeck). He said the Spit was the sweetest flying aircraft he’s flown; but if he were in a fight he’d take the Mustang every time. The Mustang can’t touch the Spitfire’s aesthetic elegance though. [quote=“1920s Style “Death Ray”, post:14, topic:497264”] Just how many flying jackets do you have? [/quote] I haven’t counted. Maybe a dozen or so. > [@Cicero](#): > > I love WW 1 aircraft. In London, I went to the Imperial War Museum and saw a Camel- it was so tiny. Those guys were crazy to fly that (apart from its legendary pig like manners). They flew a Camel at the aforementioned Chino air show, and it had an original engine. Very nice! From what I’ve heard the Camel was anything but a ‘pig’. The main issue was that the rotary engines of the day were not like the radials we’re familiar with. In them, the crankshaft was fixed and the cylinders rotated around it creating a huge gyroscopic effect. This caused some pucker-worthy effects in right turns. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-boeing-b-17-fans-out-there/497264/25 "2009-05-22T14:23:33Z")
> [@OttoDaFe](#): > > It looks as if the mounts for the cheek guns are built out from the nose (if that makes sense), which would most likely make it a G. Found another site saying the cheek guns start with the F model, but I can’t actually see enough detail in that pic to tell if they are there. I’m going to look and see if I can find details on that particular plane. Can’t be many still flying. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-boeing-b-17-fans-out-there/497264/26 "2009-05-22T14:29:42Z")
> [@Rocketeer](#): > > 'Taint a G unless it has the chin turret, and that one doesn’t. I would agree with you, since the nose turret was standard equipment in a G model. However, according to the [Vintage Flying Museum website](http://www.vintageflyingmuseum.org/aircraft.htm), the plane is indeed a G model. The turret must have been removed at some point. ---
**Author:** ![ducati](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/cc9497/32.png) [@ducati](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ducati)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-boeing-b-17-fans-out-there/497264/27 "2009-05-22T14:32:17Z")
Psssst! Hey kid - you wanna ride? [http://www.libertyfoundation.org/](http://www.libertyfoundation.org/) They come to Atlanta quite often, and I’ve been priveleged to ride in both the Liberty Belle as well as the P-51 they bring along sometimes. They travel across the country, so check the schedule to see when they’ll be in your town. It’s an opportunity that can’t last forever, and I highly recommend you seize it if at all possible. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-boeing-b-17-fans-out-there/497264/28 "2009-05-22T14:40:30Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I would agree with you, since the nose turret was standard equipment in a G model. However, according to the [Vintage Flying Museum website](http://www.vintageflyingmuseum.org/aircraft.htm), the plane is indeed a G model. The turret must have been removed at some point. Dammit, **Boyo Jim**! I was going to post that! [Here’s a thread](http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=29083&sid=716eb6aaaaebb5312c13f3e33aa731d3) started by a volunteer who worked on ‘Chuckie’. > [@CrewDog](#): > > [W]e believe the chin turret was removed shortly after she was delivered and went to Dayton Army Airfield as part of the All Weather Flying Service. > [@Ztex](#): > > There seems to be some debate as to whether this airplane ever had a chin turret in place. Some of the structure to support the turret seems to be either missing or never installed. There are some who believe that because this is a pathfinder/RADAR ship there was no chin turret installed. I have never seen photos of a pathfinder ship without a chin turret. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-boeing-b-17-fans-out-there/497264/29 "2009-05-22T14:40:39Z")
Johnny L.A.- please don’t ask for a cite as I don’t have my books with me, but I understand the Camel was a difficult plane to fly if you weren’t an experienced pilot. From memory, it was the engine type and the cpacity for very savage turns. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-boeing-b-17-fans-out-there/497264/30 "2009-05-22T14:49:43Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > Johnny L.A.- please don’t ask for a cite as I don’t have my books with me, but I understand the Camel was a difficult plane to fly if you weren’t an experienced pilot. From memory, it was the engine type and the cpacity for very savage turns. I understand that it was indeed a difficult airplane to fly. ([Biggles]If you can fly a Sopwith Camel, you can fly anything![/Biggles]) The engine had a large gyroscopic effect that caused the nose to pitch up in left turns and to pitch down in right turns. It was also tail-heavy and didn’t have elevator trim, which added workload to the pilot. It was short-coupled (the empennage was relatively close to the wings). This is good for maneuverability; not so much for stability. Another issue was a finicky engine, which might stop if it was mishandled. I’m not very well-versed on WWI aircraft, but the one thing that I’ve always heard about the Camel was the nasty torque effects caused by the rotating engine. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-boeing-b-17-fans-out-there/497264/31 "2009-05-22T14:53:45Z")
I remember reading a book where some pilot from the 30’s flew a Camel and declared it the most difficult aircraft he had flown. (Something like that). Sorry to hijack the thread, but would a pilot of today be able to jump into a Camel and fly it- or would the differences be too extreme? (Yay- I have found my copy of “Flying Fury- Five Years in the Royal Flying Corps” by James McCudden VC- but it wasn’t the book I was after) ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-boeing-b-17-fans-out-there/497264/32 "2009-05-22T15:24:45Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > EDIT: Incidentally, [here’s a shot of the back of my A-2 jacket](http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m305/llaaksonen/Visibility_Perfect.jpg?t=1242960229). ‘Visibility Perfect’ was a B-17E from the 401st Bomb Group, 8th Air Force. [Here’s a closer look at the pin-up](http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m305/llaaksonen/VisibilityPerfect.jpg?t=1242960313). Is that a replica jacket, or the real thing?!? One of the instructors in my classes had a picture of that pinup in their office–and now that I think of it, one of the technicians I visited yesterday had one in their shop, too. That would be an awesome coincidence! I am also a bomber buff. Granted, I love airplanes, but I am a fan of the “heavy haulers,” like the Handley Type Os, the B-17s, the B-25s (which my neighbor from back home flew), the B-47s and B-52s. The earlier the airframe, the better. Granted, now the B-52G and H models are very computerized and electronic, but the earlier “analog” ones mean more to me. Not to overly romanticize it, but there _was_ a time when conflicts were _fought_ by men (and women) with guts, steel, and machines–back when war was fought _in person_ using a person’s actual skills and gumption. Now it’s simply hit a button, and nuke 'em from orbit. :rolleyes: [sub]War should be so horrible, lest we grow fond of it.[/sub] These bombers to me epitomize the best in technology a nation could muster, and to me are a tribute to the aircrews who flew them and ground support troops who got them aloft. In any case, I’m down at Eglin AFB right now, and the airfield that Jimmy Doolittle used to train his crews for the Tokyo strike is _actually here_! It’s abandoned and overgrown, but it’s still here. Rumor has it, you can still see some of the markings he had painted for training. If I can get to it in the next few weeks for some pictures, I will. I have to do some research first, but I do [have a good start.](http://www.airfields-freeman.com/FL/Airfields_FL_Eglin.htm) And that link is useful for all 50 states. Tripler I have some work to do. Pictures (and details) to follow. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![UncleRojelio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unclerojelio/32/3160_2.png) [@UncleRojelio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleRojelio)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-boeing-b-17-fans-out-there/497264/33 "2009-05-22T15:58:10Z")
I’m a fan. I’ve never gotten a chance to go for a ride though. Hopefully someday. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-boeing-b-17-fans-out-there/497264/34 "2009-05-22T15:59:16Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > Is that a replica jacket, or the real thing?!? One of the instructors in my classes had a picture of that pinup in their office–and now that I think of it, one of the technicians I visited yesterday had one in their shop, too. That would be an awesome coincidence! The jacket is one I bought from Avirex (The Cockpit) in the late-1980s. Also in the '80s I bought a copy of [_Vintage Aircraft Nose Art_](http://www.amazon.com/Vintage-Aircraft-Nose-Gary-Valant/dp/087938266X/ref=ed_oe_h), and of all of the nose art in the book ‘Visibility Perfect’ was my favourite. (My g/f at the time liked ‘Bell of the Brawl’ – she’d seen it before I got the book – and wanted that on her jacket. She never got it.) I have a friend who is a painter (among other things), and asked if he could paint my jacket. I did some searching and found an image of the original pin-up art and of a professional reproduction jacket. I gave him the images and he did a bit of research on what paint to use, etc. I’m pleased with the results. The only real mistake he made was on the AAF shoulder ‘decal’. While he included a faint brown outline to simulate the clear part of an original decal that was applied to original jackets, he made the ‘decal’ four inches in diameter instead of three. I guess I should have specified. Great job on it though, including the lettering underneath. And in fact the originals did tend to wear off after use and were often repainted or repainted with a non-standard design, or replaced with a cloth or leather patch of some sort. So while it’s not ‘correct’, it’s ‘authentic enough’. The original pin-up artist was [Earl Moran](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Moran), and it was published in 1942. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-boeing-b-17-fans-out-there/497264/35 "2009-05-22T16:17:56Z")
> [@bannerrefugee](#): > > They blew up a few of my wife’s family. > > I don’t like them. Quite understandable. I guess there’s a bit of cognitive dissonance in appreciating machines created to cause death and destruction. In the case of the Foundation’s _Nine-O-Nine_, it never saw combat. It was a firefighting air tanker for many years, so I suppose you coud say it did “good deeds”. What always intrigued me about the B-17 and it’s brethren is how people figured out how to put those things together–isn’t it possible to view them as works of “art”? At any rate, the Collings Foundation isn’t entirely Allied-centric in their efforts . If you have $26,000 to spare, you can sign up to fly a German WWII jet fighter in their [Messerschmitt Me 262 Project](http://http://www.stormbirds.com/project/index.html)! ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-boeing-b-17-fans-out-there/497264/36 "2009-05-22T16:33:56Z")
It was definitely [one of the classics](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcaEdnFLb1U). ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-boeing-b-17-fans-out-there/497264/37 "2009-05-22T16:46:47Z")
> [@WarmNPrickly](#): > > It was definitely [one of the classics](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcaEdnFLb1U). [B-17 segment from _Heavy Metal_](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9UfNaTcDpM) ---
**Author:** ![pullin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@pullin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pullin)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-boeing-b-17-fans-out-there/497264/38 "2009-05-22T17:04:39Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > What model is that, an E or an F? Already answered, it was a ‘G’ (sorry, was away from the thread). If memory serves, Doc Hospers told me it was being used for aerial spraying when he bought it (against fire ants). I’m pretty sure they had to remove the spray nozzles as part of their restoration. Last time I saw the Chuckie, they’d installed (or re-installed) a chin turret. Interesting anecdote: During airshows, while the plane was parked, we had a big problem with kids/teens/jerks ignoring the signs, and grabbing the barrels of the tail and waist guns (some would attempt to swing from them). The Hospers’ hit on the solution of coating the barrels with a thick layer of nasty black grease. Hilarity ensued. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-boeing-b-17-fans-out-there/497264/39 "2009-05-22T17:26:11Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Here’s a rarity: a [P-51B Mustang](http://www.flickr.com/photos/27492458@N05/3537089690/). I snapped the photos last week. D-models abound. When I was at an air show at Edwards AFB several years ago I saw a P-51D (in RAF livery) without the vertical stab extension and thought myself lucky to have seen such an early model. I never thought I’d see a -B. I had to point it out to my friend, as we’re having a disagreement over which is prettier: the Mustang or the Spitfire. I just had to rub his nose in the Spitfire-derived Malcolm Hood. 😃 The Spitfire is definitely prettier. Slightly off topic, I find it unspeakably cool that the upcoming F-35/Joint Strike Fighter has been given the Lightning II moniker in honor of the P-51 and [English Electric Lightning](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Electric_Lightning). ---
**Author:** ![UncaStuart](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uncastuart/32/404_2.png) [@UncaStuart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncaStuart)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-boeing-b-17-fans-out-there/497264/40 "2009-05-22T18:06:11Z")
I walked (crawled?) through Nine-O-Nine last year when they were at Moffett. My dad’s older brother flew B-17s and ended up as commander of the 95th BG just at the end of the war. My brother and I always made models of the B-17, and definitely thought it was a cool piece of machinery, even if its mid-thirties styling looked a little retro next to some of its workmates. My flight that day, however, was in the B-25, “Todelayo,” my brother and I giving a flight to our dad as a gift for his 88th birthday. He had flown 98 combat missions in an A-20 in New Guinea and the Philippines, but had also flown the B-25 in non-combat roles (beer run to Australia, delivering Brass to various places), and this was as close as we could get. He was able to swap B-25 stories with the 40-something pilots and enjoyed the experience, especially since nobody was shooting at him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-boeing-b-17-fans-out-there/497264.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-boeing-b-17-fans-out-there/497264.md?page=3)