# Any case where MM-DD-YY dating has cost money? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 23, 2023, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-case-where-mm-dd-yy-dating-has-cost-money/990594 "2023-09-23T11:50:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2023, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-case-where-mm-dd-yy-dating-has-cost-money/990594/41 "2023-09-24T20:05:10Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > Could be worse. The October Revolution was in November. No, in Russia, it was still October. They were a bit behind the rest of the world. However, yes, in the yes of the world it took place in early November. ---
**Author:** ![Digger11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@Digger11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digger11)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2023, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-case-where-mm-dd-yy-dating-has-cost-money/990594/42 "2023-09-24T20:19:57Z")
> [@colinfred](#): > > Americans use MM-DD-YY as a shortform, the rest of the world uses the much more sensible DD-MM-YY. Is there a good example of a case where an American firm in good faith sloppily used MM-DD-YY in their international promotion, and the customers interpreted it as DD-MM-YY, causing the American firm to lose a lot of money due to their offer being much more generous than anticipated and/or having to pay court costs? > [@Chronos](#): > > Personally, I use the format 23 AUG 2023. ISO 8601 can still be misunderstood by an American (and let’s face it, there are a lot of us out there in international commerce), but using letters for the month makes it impossible to interpret any other way, and it also provides a natural divider between the digits. I suppose that 2023 AUG 23 would work just as well, but my format is more familiar to Americans, who are the vast majority of people I interact with When people are talking out loud, does anybody actually **say** “23 August”? “August 23rd” is so much more natural. Because (A) it rolls off the tongue easier, and (B) it’s more logical. Since people seldom talk about a multi-year timeframe in most instances, it’s more natural to identify the big unit of time (the month) first, and then introduce more specificity by sub-dividing that unit into smaller units (days). This has the added advantage of being EXACTLY how we talk about time of day. The hour (big unit) comes first, and then the minute (smaller sub-division of time). **Nobody** writes the time “45:9 AM.” ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2023, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-case-where-mm-dd-yy-dating-has-cost-money/990594/43 "2023-09-24T20:29:54Z")
> [@Digger11](#): > > When people are talking out loud, does anybody actually **say** “23 August”? Anyone in the US military does, and every time they speak a date. People who are in military-adjacent industries probably do to. My former employer used that format and it was commonly pronounced just as written. You have inadvertantly hit upon the nub of this whole date format thing. Humans are lazy and prefer to say or write the least possible, with the rest inferred by the audience from context. And with a fuzzy notion of precision. Computers prefer zero inferring and everything (including precision) explicit. The ideal format for short + variable precision + inference of the rest is very different from the ideal format for universality and explicit precision. Lastly, computers prefer one format everywhere for everything whereas humans prefer different formats for different degrees of specificity and different operating contexts. “Next Tuesday” is great when you know from context when that was said. When someone reads this post a month (or 3 years) from now, the same words “next Tuesday” will refer to a very different point in time. OTOH “2023-10-03” will be static, referring to “next Tuesday” as I write but _not_ “next Tuesday” a month from now. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2023, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-case-where-mm-dd-yy-dating-has-cost-money/990594/44 "2023-09-24T20:36:37Z")
> [@colinfred](#): > > Americans use MM-DD-YY as a shortform, the rest of the world uses the much more sensible DD-MM-YY. Why is it “more sensible”? I am with > [@Digger11](#): > > “August 23rd” is so much more natural. Because (A) it rolls off the tongue easier, and (B) it’s more logical. Just because other nations do it differently, doesn’t mean the USA is wrong. And this map shows not all of the rest of the world uses DD-MM-YY: Quite a bit of asia uses YDM instead. > **[List of date formats by country](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_format_by_country)** > > The legal and cultural expectations for date and time representation vary between countries, and it is important to be aware of the forms of all-numeric calendar dates used in a particular country to know what date is intended. Writers have traditionally written abbreviated dates according to their local custom, creating all-numeric equivalents to day–month formats such as "11 August 2026" (11/08/26, 11/08/2026, 11-08-2026 or 11.08.2026) and month–day formats such as "August 11, 2026" (08/11/... In fact, international experts are pushing for the iso YYYY-MM-DD. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2023, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-case-where-mm-dd-yy-dating-has-cost-money/990594/45 "2023-09-24T20:49:30Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Why is it “more sensible”? > > I am with > > > [@Digger11](#): > > > > “August 23rd” is so much more natural. Because (A) it rolls off the tongue easier, and (B) it’s more logical. > > Just because other nations do it differently, doesn’t mean the USA is wrong. > > And this map shows not all of the rest of the world uses DD-MM-YY: Quite a bit of asia uses YDM instead. > > [Date format by country - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_format_by_country) > > In fact, international experts are pushing for the iso YYYY-MM-DD. On the linked map, Canada is in the grey zone (anything goes)… But there is an important point here: local numerical formats follow local text/spoken conventions. This is about standardizing a numerical format only. The local text/spoken conventions will continue. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2023, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-case-where-mm-dd-yy-dating-has-cost-money/990594/46 "2023-09-24T20:59:41Z")
DMY is small to large YMD is large to small MDY is neither. It’s like writing your address Spring Street House # 44 MA, Springdale, USA ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2023, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-case-where-mm-dd-yy-dating-has-cost-money/990594/47 "2023-09-24T21:00:56Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > …but using letters for the month makes it impossible to interpret any other way… That breaks down as soon as you have multiple languages. For instance, for dates in August, the Canadian passport has a workaround that shows DD AUG / AOÛT YYYY. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2023, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-case-where-mm-dd-yy-dating-has-cost-money/990594/48 "2023-09-24T21:13:39Z")
> [@Digger11](#): > > “August 23rd” is so much more natural. Because (A) it rolls off the tongue easier, and (B) it’s more logical. Since people seldom talk about a multi-year timeframe in most instances, it’s more natural to identify the big unit of time (the month) first, and then introduce more specificity by sub-dividing that unit into smaller units (days). This explains why people refer to individual months as “August of 2023” instead of “2023 August”. No, wait, it doesn’t. The logic you’re finding just isn’t there. > [@Sunspace](#): > > That breaks down as soon as you have multiple languages. All forms of communication break down once you have multiple languages. That can’t be helped. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2023, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-case-where-mm-dd-yy-dating-has-cost-money/990594/49 "2023-09-24T21:34:15Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > It’s like writing your address > > Spring Street House # 44 > MA, Springdale, USA In Europe, addresses are often written pretty close to this. I’ve seen Finnish addresses that go something like this: Esplanadi 23 C 14 FI-2300 Helsinki Where Esplanadi is the street name, 23 is the street address of the apartment building, C is the entrance of the building, and 14 is the apartment number, accessible only by that entrance (it was a large building–and imagine trying to find the apartment if you don’t know this), FI is the country code, 2300 is the postal code, and Helsinki is the city. Note that there is no province name. This causes issues when I order books from a place in Belgium. Their order form has literally no place to put in a province name, and it formats shipping addresses for print in the this way, which makes Canadian or US addresses look really, really weird. If it wasn’t for the postal code, my package might not make it to the right [Springfield](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield). ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2023, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-case-where-mm-dd-yy-dating-has-cost-money/990594/50 "2023-09-24T21:48:16Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > In Europe, addresses are often written pretty close to this. I’ve seen Finnish addresses that go something like this: I know. And that’s a less logical way to write an address than big to small (China) or small to big (many places including the USA, almost). Just because the Americans or Finns do it a particular way, doesn’t make it logical/sensible/intuitive nor does it make it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2023, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-case-where-mm-dd-yy-dating-has-cost-money/990594/51 "2023-09-24T21:55:30Z")
> [@Digger11](#): > > “August 23rd” is so much more natural. Because (A) it rolls off the tongue easier, and (B) it’s more logical. It’s not more _natural_. It’s more _familiar_ to you because you’re an American. So it rolls off _your_ tongue because your tongue is accustomed to saying “Aug 23” rather than “23 Aug”. It is nothing more than habit. As to “logical” you’d have to define what sort of logic you mean. This is similar to nouns and adjectives in English. The standard grammar is that the various flavors of adjectives all come first in an arbitrary but recognizable order by category, then finally the noun they modify. Which is ignorant and backwards. Contrast: - The big red rubber ball (standard English) - The red rubber big ball (an example with the adjective categories out of usual order) - The rubber red big ball (a different example with the adjective categories out of usual order) - The ball big red rubber (An example of US military-style logistic nomenclature that is far _more_ logical, but sounds really foreign and “unnatural” until you’re used to it. Then you wonder why ordinary English does it so stupidly backwards.) ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-case-where-mm-dd-yy-dating-has-cost-money/990594/52 "2023-09-24T21:57:31Z")
I’ve noticed a lot of non-Americans write American addresses as > John Smith > 10 Main Street > Springfield > ST 00000 because they think the comma in > Springfield, ST 00000 stands for a line break. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2023, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-case-where-mm-dd-yy-dating-has-cost-money/990594/53 "2023-09-24T22:07:59Z")
Although interestingly enough, the USPS standard for addresses dropped the comma between city and state a couple of decades ago. Using the comma is non-standard now. Individual people addressing stuff whether by hand or by keyboard still tend to use it and it still works. But nobody preparing volume mail for USPS delivery will use the comma. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2023, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-case-where-mm-dd-yy-dating-has-cost-money/990594/54 "2023-09-24T23:46:23Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > Note to self: must renew passport. My granddaughter visited us a couple weeks ago and, while here, decided to apply for a Canadian passport. She has already received it (in Chicago). Quebec has used the YYYYMMDD standard for a couple decades. I’m not sure about the rest of Canada (too lazy to look up my passport). It sure makes sense and is easy to sort. A friend retired on the second day of second month of the second year of the millennium so there could be no confusion. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-case-where-mm-dd-yy-dating-has-cost-money/990594/55 "2023-09-25T01:41:01Z")
> [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](#): > > Springfield, ST Wait, I thought that Springfield was in North Tacoma. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-case-where-mm-dd-yy-dating-has-cost-money/990594/56 "2023-09-25T04:35:08Z")
Springfield is in one of the states that meet at the 5 Corners. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-case-where-mm-dd-yy-dating-has-cost-money/990594/57 "2023-09-25T10:23:33Z")
> [@colinfred](#): > > …Is there a good example of a case where an American firm in good faith sloppily used MM-DD-YY in their international promotion, and the customers interpreted it as DD-MM-YY, causing the American firm to lose a lot of money due to their offer being much more generous than anticipated and/or having to pay court costs? Why is this a one way street? Regardless of which way is ‘better’ couldn’t this be a European business losing money in the USA for not using the ‘Amenican’ format just as easily? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-case-where-mm-dd-yy-dating-has-cost-money/990594/58 "2023-09-25T12:07:03Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Why is this a one way street? Regardless of which way is ‘better’ couldn’t this be a European business losing money in the USA for not using the ‘Amenican’ format just as easily? It’s not entirely one-way, but in my experience it’s more than 95% one way. My experience = working for either US companies with significant operations outside the US, or working for European companies with much or most of their business in the US. For 30+ years. The Europeans in particular are very cognizant of differences in culture, language and customs. On the other hand they sometimes think what works in Texas will work in New York or vice-versa and come a-cropper that way. Also are sometimes shocked by the size of the country (combined with very poor train service). But they seem to adapt pretty quickly. I’ve known Americans the have complained about the parking in major European cities for 8-10 years, because they are trying to drive everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-case-where-mm-dd-yy-dating-has-cost-money/990594/59 "2023-09-25T12:59:44Z")
> [@markn\_1](#): > > I wish they had used a punctuation mark > [@Sunspace](#): > > If the T is used nowhere else in the standard, then it would essentially _be_ a punctuation mark. I think the T is an excellent choice! Punctuation is optional everywhere in the code (except as a decimal mark if fractional seconds are included). This is valuable, for example, when naming files or variables or functions or other digital constructs (as various digital systems prohibit various punctuation marks). A letter character is allowed in many more constructs than any particular punctuation is. It’s quick ‘n’ easy to look for the T programmatically, and “T” is never used as a delimiter in any other programming stuff IIRC. For many uses of 8601, the “T” is the only delimiter. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-case-where-mm-dd-yy-dating-has-cost-money/990594/60 "2023-09-25T15:19:33Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > Expired Mensa club card ![](https://media.tenor.com/OQQjy8qSjl8AAAAC/eye-roll-ugh.gif) > [@Best way to test my intelligence?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-way-to-test-my-intelligence/983466/10): > > I recall tests taken in early grade school. “Which two animals are alike?” and a picture of a horse, a cow and a chicken. Obviously cows and horses are mammals and have four legs. We eat cows and chickens, however. Even at such a young age, I wondered if they were trying to trick me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-case-where-mm-dd-yy-dating-has-cost-money/990594.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-case-where-mm-dd-yy-dating-has-cost-money/990594.md?page=4)