# Any cases of brain dead person brought back to live? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 22, 2017, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cases-of-brain-dead-person-brought-back-to-live/787201 "2017-05-22T05:49:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cases-of-brain-dead-person-brought-back-to-live/787201/1 "2017-05-22T05:49:28Z")
Any cases of brain dead person brought back to live? Has there been any case where some one brain dead was brought back to live? Under the normal legal system, when the heart and lungs stop working the person is legally dead. But now they say because of CPR and defibrillator it no longer means the person is legally dead!!!:eek::eek: But now the legal system now for legally dead means brain dead. That kinda of gray area:eek::eek::eek::eek: now, because after 6 minutes brain cells start to die!! So if the person is brain dead is there any technology to bring the person back to life? I guess there is very small window of opportunity of about 6 to 10 minutes the person heart and lungs stop working to bring the person brought back to life? Why? because after 10 minutes it is very hard at that point to bring the person back to life and after 10 minutes the person would be in vegetated state because after 6 minutes brain cells start to die!! But has there been any cases to bring back brain dead person back to life? How can they restore electrical activity in person? Has it been done? How close is the small window of opportunity of about 6 to 10 to 15 minutes tops to jump start the electrical activity in person? How can they restore brain activity? Has it been done? What is being done on this front. Is the meaning of dead or being legally dead being subject to change now. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cases-of-brain-dead-person-brought-back-to-live/787201/2 "2017-05-22T07:39:04Z")
How do you define life? There are people kept alive who are brain dead. But if you a brain dead you’re not going to come back to “brain live”, as far as we know. There’s no defibrillator for the brain. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cases-of-brain-dead-person-brought-back-to-live/787201/3 "2017-05-22T08:07:05Z")
If there are any cases, they’re going to be documented as something like ‘incorrectly diagnosed as brain dead’, because I think as far as medical science understands it, there’s no coming back from brain death. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cases-of-brain-dead-person-brought-back-to-live/787201/4 "2017-05-22T08:39:33Z")
[This dude](http://www.today.com/news/pronounced-dead-man-takes-miraculous-turn-2D80555113), for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cases-of-brain-dead-person-brought-back-to-live/787201/5 "2017-05-22T09:20:04Z")
If, by brain dead, you mean the cells of the brain have ceased functioning and begun to disintegrate, neurologic function for whatever those cells do is not recoverable. It is possible, but difficult, to maintain peripheral body functions such as circulation and (assisted) ventilation when the brain is pretty far gone, so whether or not the patient is himself dead depends on how you decide what life is. If by brain dead you mean a guy who simply looks dead, it depends on why he looks brain dead. If his EEG is flatline, is he just super cold? Tiny chance of getting him back if the hypothermia is accidental; if he’s in the operating room and it’s being done on purpose, pretty good chance. If he’s warm but has lost all his brainstem reflexes, it kinda depends on the situation, but if those are gone and his EEG is flat, and he doesn’t have injected chemicals tricking your clinical analysis, his brain will not be “brought back to life” despite what the rest of his body is doing. In general the “brought back to life” cases are not cases where a competent clinician made a non-hurried designation of a brain death. Remember that the brain has more than 100 billion cells, and a lot of different functions, so defining a “dead brain” is not a binary proposition unless the whole thing is gone. Imagine a city with some electrical outages that keep getting worse, but where there are multiple power sources. Until the last light bulb goes out, can you say the city is completely dead electrically? Sometime well before the last toaster stopped glowing, it was a dead city functionally. ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cases-of-brain-dead-person-brought-back-to-live/787201/6 "2017-05-22T18:53:33Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > [This dude](http://www.today.com/news/pronounced-dead-man-takes-miraculous-turn-2D80555113), for instance. In his case there was no blood flow to his brain so the doctors said he was brain dead. What is the mystery in that case is what started blood flow to his brain? Was his heart and lungs working okay but no blood flow to the brain? Why no blood flow to his brain and what started blood flow to his brain. > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > If, by brain dead, you mean the cells of the brain have ceased functioning and begun to disintegrate, neurologic function for whatever those cells do is not recoverable. It is possible, but difficult, to maintain peripheral body functions such as circulation and (assisted) ventilation when the brain is pretty far gone, so whether or not the patient is himself dead depends on how you decide what life is. > > If by brain dead you mean a guy who simply looks dead, it depends on why he looks brain dead. If his EEG is flatline, is he just super cold? Tiny chance of getting him back if the hypothermia is accidental; if he’s in the operating room and it’s being done on purpose, pretty good chance. > > If he’s warm but has lost all his brainstem reflexes, it kinda depends on the situation, but if those are gone and his EEG is flat, and he doesn’t have injected chemicals tricking your clinical analysis, his brain will not be “brought back to life” despite what the rest of his body is doing. > > In general the “brought back to life” cases are not cases where a competent clinician made a non-hurried designation of a brain death. > > Remember that the brain has more than 100 billion cells, and a lot of different functions, so defining a “dead brain” is not a binary proposition unless the whole thing is gone. Imagine a city with some electrical outages that keep getting worse, but where there are multiple power sources. Until the last light bulb goes out, can you say the city is completely dead electrically? Sometime well before the last toaster stopped glowing, it was a dead city functionally. I think in case they are talking about lack of electrical activity. And where some say is there any way to jump start the electrical activity. And if the person was dead for under 10 to 15 minutes chance to bring the person back is higher than if the person is dead for over 10 to 15 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cases-of-brain-dead-person-brought-back-to-live/787201/7 "2017-05-23T07:28:50Z")
> [@sweat209](#): > > Under the normal legal system, when the heart and lungs stop working the person is legally dead. > > But now they say because of CPR and defibrillator it no longer means the person is legally dead!!!:eek::eek: But now the legal system now for legally dead means brain dead. I believe ‘legally dead’ only happens when a doctor signs a death certificate certifying that person X is dead. And that won’t happen if person X is still in a hospital ICU, on a respirator & defibrillator, etc. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cases-of-brain-dead-person-brought-back-to-live/787201/8 "2017-05-23T07:34:44Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > [This dude](http://www.today.com/news/pronounced-dead-man-takes-miraculous-turn-2D80555113), for instance. I’m not a doctor, but a PET-scan doesn’t seem to me to be the appropriate tool for determining brain death. And even if it is, what is more likely? That this guy was brain dead for hours and somehow miraculously rebooted with no damage, or that the doctor majorly fucked up the examination and scan? ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cases-of-brain-dead-person-brought-back-to-live/787201/9 "2017-05-23T07:40:46Z")
> [@sweat209](#): > > In his case there was no blood flow to his brain so the doctors said he was brain dead. What is the mystery in that case is what started blood flow to his brain? > > Was his heart and lungs working okay but no blood flow to the brain? Why no blood flow to his brain and what started blood flow to his brain. No, in this case a doctor thought there was no blood flow to his brain. It’s highly likely this doctor was majorly mistaken. Here’s a neurologist supporting that conclusion, although like us he’s just working from the news reports. [Brain Dead - NeuroLogica Blog](http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/brain-dead/) ---
**Author:** ![joema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9adbd/32.png) [@joema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joema)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cases-of-brain-dead-person-brought-back-to-live/787201/10 "2017-05-23T10:44:57Z")
> [@sweat209](#): > > …Under the normal legal system, when the heart and lungs stop working the person is legally dead… I don’t think that’s true. There is a difference between “clinical death” and “legally declared dead”. By either accident or surgical procedure people can be held in a deep hypothermic state for over 1 hour with no brain or heart activity – clinical death – and successfully revived. “Clinical death” is where statements come from like “I died on the operating table and was brought back to life”. They were never really dead, if the definition is decay of the brain’s intricate synaptic network. In Short-term cases their heart stopped momentarily. In long term cases they were being held in a state of metabolic suspension via deep hypothermia. > **[Deep hypothermic circulatory arrest](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_hypothermic_circulatory_arrest)** > > Deep hypothermic circulatory arrest (DHCA) is a surgical technique in which the temperature of the body falls significantly (between 20 °C (68 °F) to 25 °C (77 °F)) and blood circulation is stopped for up to one hour. It is used when blood circulation to the brain must be stopped because of delicate surgery within the brain, or because of surgery on large blood vessels that lead to or from the brain. DHCA is used to provide a better visual field during surgery due to the cessation of blood flow.\[... > **[Clinical death](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death)** > > Clinical death is the medical term for cessation of blood circulation and breathing, the two criteria necessary to sustain the lives of human beings and of many other organisms. It occurs when the heart stops beating in a regular rhythm, a condition called cardiac arrest. The term is also sometimes used in resuscitation research. > Stopped blood circulation has historically proven irreversible in most cases. Prior to the invention of cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR), defibrillation, epinephrine... ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cases-of-brain-dead-person-brought-back-to-live/787201/11 "2017-05-23T12:10:15Z")
> [@sweat209](#): > > Under the normal legal system, when the heart and lungs stop working the person is legally dead. Since this is not true, none of the rest of your OP makes much sense. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cases-of-brain-dead-person-brought-back-to-live/787201/12 "2017-05-23T16:00:38Z")
Research shows [not all brain death is the same](http://www.jhunewsletter.com/2013/10/03/hope-is-found-even-in-flat-lined-eeg-13855/). > [@](#): > > The evidence suggests that despite a flat line EEG, cerebral activities are still possible in regions of the brain other than the cortex. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cases-of-brain-dead-person-brought-back-to-live/787201/13 "2017-05-23T16:04:52Z")
It seems to me that “brain death” is a pretty hard item to _precisely_ pin-point. Hypothermic drowning victims preiodically recover - some completely - often enough to blur the lines. In some circumstances, where cellular dispruption can be delayed, simply restarting the heart and reversing the hypothermia is sufficient to generate a “miracle.” But those conditions are, by their very nature, extrmely rare outside of a surgical theater. ---
**Author:** ![busterpickle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@busterpickle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/busterpickle)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cases-of-brain-dead-person-brought-back-to-live/787201/14 "2017-05-23T16:15:33Z")
What country are we talking about? That will affect the legal determination of what is or is not “dead”. People come back from have their heart stop all the time, not 100% success rate though. Flat lined brain though… I’d have to research that. Also, as someone else states, this is not a simple binary decision. So many scenarios we could go over. In the USA, it’s up to the decision of the attending physician, with consult of any surviving family member or legal guardians, to make the determination as to whether or not to continue life support for a non-responsive person. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cases-of-brain-dead-person-brought-back-to-live/787201/15 "2017-05-23T16:48:44Z")
> [@sweat209](#): > > Under the normal legal system, when the heart and lungs stop working the person is legally dead. > > But now they say because of CPR and defibrillator it no longer means the person is legally dead!!! I just want to point out, since the above quote seems to suggest this, that a defibrillator does not restart a stopped heart, despite numerous depictions of such an event in movies and TV shows. The purpose of a defibrillator is to STOP a heart which is in fibrillation, not to start it if it is not beating. ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cases-of-brain-dead-person-brought-back-to-live/787201/16 "2017-05-23T20:06:14Z")
> [@naita](#): > > I’m not a doctor, but a PET-scan doesn’t seem to me to be the appropriate tool for determining brain death. And even if it is, what is more likely? That this guy was brain dead for hours and somehow miraculously rebooted with no damage, or that the doctor majorly fucked up the examination and scan? > [@naita](#): > > No, in this case a doctor thought there was no blood flow to his brain. It’s highly likely this doctor was majorly mistaken. > > Here’s a neurologist supporting that conclusion, although like us he’s just working from the news reports. [Brain Dead - NeuroLogica Blog](http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/brain-dead/) That what I don’t know did the doctor make mistake and thought there was no blood flow or was there no blood floor and some how some thing started the blood floor. What caused no blood flow? ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cases-of-brain-dead-person-brought-back-to-live/787201/17 "2017-05-23T20:09:53Z")
> [@electronbee](#): > > What country are we talking about? That will affect the legal determination of what is or is not “dead”. People come back from have their heart stop all the time, not 100% success rate though. Flat lined brain though… I’d have to research that. > > Also, as someone else states, this is not a simple binary decision. So many scenarios we could go over. In the USA, it’s up to the decision of the attending physician, with consult of any surviving family member or legal guardians, to make the determination as to whether or not to continue life support for a non-responsive person. Yea but how do you start heart that stop working. That say the heart stop working person been dead for 4 minutes how do you start their heart. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cases-of-brain-dead-person-brought-back-to-live/787201/18 "2017-05-23T20:24:27Z")
> [@sweat209](#): > > Yea but how do you start heart that stop working. Define what you mean by “heart that stop working.” There are numerous failure modes so there are numerous fixes. ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cases-of-brain-dead-person-brought-back-to-live/787201/19 "2017-05-23T20:25:58Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Since this is not true, none of the rest of your OP makes much sense. **Wrong Wrong base on old history before CPR and defibrillator death was base on cessation of heartbeat (cardiac arrest) and of breathing.** > [@](#): > > **Historically, attempts to define the exact moment of a human’s death have been subjective, or imprecise. Death was once defined as the cessation of heartbeat (cardiac arrest) and of breathing, but the development of CPR and prompt defibrillation have rendered that definition inadequate because breathing and heartbeat can sometimes be restarted.** > **[Death](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death)** > > Death is the end of life; the irreversible cessation of all biological functions that sustain a living organism. The remains of a former organism normally begin to decompose shortly after death. Death eventually and inevitably occurs in all organisms. Some organisms, such as Turritopsis dohrnii, are biologically immortal, however they can still die from means other than aging. Death is generally applied to whole organisms; the equivalent for individual components of an organism, such as As ... Also being what is death is not clear. > [@](#): > > One of the **challenges in defining death is** in distinguishing it from life. As a point in time, death would seem to refer to the moment at which life ends. Determining when death has occurred requires drawing precise conceptual boundaries between life and death. This is difficult, due to there being **little consensus on how to define life**. This general problem applies to the particular challenge of defining death in the cont > [@](#): > > Events which were causally linked to death in the past no longer kill in all circumstances; without a functioning heart or lungs, life can sometimes be sustained with a combination of life support devices, organ transplants and artificial pacemakers. What was once being dead no longer means dead now. Please read the OP post. **Under the normal legal system, when the heart and lungs stop working the person is legally dead.** Historically, attempts to define the exact moment of a human’s death have been subjective, or imprecise. Death was once defined as the cessation of heartbeat (cardiac arrest) **general rule of thumb is that brain cells begin to die after approximately 4-6 minutes of no blood-flow. After around 10 minutes, those cells will cease functioning, and be effectively dead.Nov 4, 2013** > **[How Long Does Your Heart Have to Stop For Before You Can't Be Treated?](https://gizmodo.com/how-long-does-your-heart-have-to-stop-for-before-you-ca-1457981280)** > > The question of how long someone's heart would have to be stopped for before you can safely say that regardless of what you do, you're not going to be ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cases-of-brain-dead-person-brought-back-to-live/787201/20 "2017-05-23T20:29:29Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Define what you mean by “heart that stop working.” There are numerous failure modes so there are numerous fixes. I’m talking about cardiac arrest when heart stops beating. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cases-of-brain-dead-person-brought-back-to-live/787201.md?page=2)