# Any chance of a "essential government employee" strike? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 5, 2019, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-chance-of-a-essential-government-employee-strike/827251 "2019-01-05T16:51:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-chance-of-a-essential-government-employee-strike/827251/41 "2019-01-06T02:02:27Z")
> [@Tempe\_Jeff](#): > > Ok, I will concede I cannot prove a criminal shielded by “Sanctuary” laws in California was a visa-overstayer vs. border crosser illegally. I will tell you, here in Arizona, we have to deal with the gangs and criminals crossing the border daily and, $26 Billion to reduce ‘Anchor Babies’ is a drop in the Bucket. Our Public Schools suffer from a huge amount of illegal children attending for the ‘Free Breakfast’ and ‘Free Lunch’ provided by the Feds. If you won’t feed your darned kids, get back home. The REAL reason Kids have to eat at School? Illegal Parents use the Food Stamp EBT for their little anchor to feed themselves. My user name shows where I live and I see it regularly. This is my last response to this thread because I do not support open borders so, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Never said I support open borders, really. I will offer that my brother - whom I just called - is a Deputy Chief or whatever of a fire station down between Tucson and the border. He would dispute your ‘coming over the border everyday’ theory. I’m seeing a lot of argument in your paragraph, above, but little data. Do you have any? I’d be curious to see if there was any truth to it. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-chance-of-a-essential-government-employee-strike/827251/42 "2019-01-06T03:00:01Z")
Getting back to the OP for a second, its seems ATCs may have join the unofficial “sickout” (a complication for them it seems if they take too many sick days they can lose their certification, just like a pilot can): > **[Shutdown Stories: Air Traffic Controllers Join TSA Workers In Sickout - News...](https://www.newsandguts.com/shutdown-stories-air-traffic-controllers-join-tsa-workers-in-sickout/?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark)** > > After we wrote about TSA workers calling in sick due to the government shutdown an Air Traffic Controller contacted us with her own story. This is important because it doesn’t just impact the controllers themselves, it could impact aviation safety in... ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-chance-of-a-essential-government-employee-strike/827251/43 "2019-01-06T03:02:55Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > 1981 PATCO/Air Traffic Controllers strike under Reagan. He fired 11,000 people. The number of flights per day was halved for some months and it took a decade to fully staff the air traffic control system again. The big difference here is the public will be overwhelmingly for the strikers. They aren’t after a pay raise, they just want to not have to go to work without getting paid. Almost everyone can sympathize with that. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-chance-of-a-essential-government-employee-strike/827251/44 "2019-01-06T04:57:26Z")
> [@Tempe\_Jeff](#): > > Bolding mine. I find it laughable that liberals are screeching about Federal spending being wasteful. > “In Fiscal Year 2019, the federal budget will be $4.407 trillion. The U.S. government estimates it will receive $3.422 trillion in revenue. That creates a $985 billion deficit for October 1, 2018 through September 30, 2019.” > > 26 Billion for the wall is small-potatoes. Why are you HONESTLY opposed? Is it possible to write that while overlooking that Trump’s tax cuts caused the deficit to zoom up to a trillion, after Obama managed to cut the deficit by a trillion dollars? Wouldn’t the strain on the cognitive dissonance bone make it too painful to type? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-chance-of-a-essential-government-employee-strike/827251/45 "2019-01-06T05:06:42Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Is it possible to write that while overlooking that Trump’s tax cuts caused the deficit to zoom up to a trillion… ‘Deficits don’t matter. We won the… elections, this is our due.’ ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-chance-of-a-essential-government-employee-strike/827251/46 "2019-01-06T05:27:11Z")
> [@Tempe\_Jeff](#): > > Bolding mine. I find it laughable that liberals are screeching about Federal spending being wasteful. > “In Fiscal Year 2019, the federal budget will be $4.407 trillion. The U.S. government estimates it will receive $3.422 trillion in revenue. That creates a $985 billion deficit for October 1, 2018 through September 30, 2019.” > > 26 Billion for the wall is small-potatoes. Why are you HONESTLY opposed? I find it laughable that conservatives, who normally screech about wasteful spending, are practically lining up to throw tax money at such a dubious enterprise as The Wall. And I stated why I’m honestly opposed. It’s a misbegotten waste of money and resources. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-chance-of-a-essential-government-employee-strike/827251/47 "2019-01-06T06:09:44Z")
Correct me if I’m wrong here, but isn’t this issue much bigger than any wall? I mean, we have the executive branch using force to make the legislature to pass a law it doesn’t want to pass. Is that how it’s supposed to work? Isn’t congress supposed to be the one making the laws? Don’t look now, but I think you guys are in the middle of a constitutional crisis. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-chance-of-a-essential-government-employee-strike/827251/48 "2019-01-06T06:25:26Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > This is not as true as one might think. Following previous shutdowns, congress passed a bill paying workers for their time. But there’s no guarantee this will happen during the current or future shutdowns. I can’t imagine that Congress refusing to provide backpay to federal workers who actually worked during the shutdown would fly. What I have heard during previous shutdowns is some conservative grumblings over backpay for those employees who were furloughed, with the argument that they were paying bureaucrats for doing nothing. (The fact that they were forced to stay at home gets ignored.) Still, in every previous shutdown Congress had provided backpay for both essential and furloughed employees, and I don’t see the Democratic House agreeing to a budget that doesn’t do so. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-chance-of-a-essential-government-employee-strike/827251/49 "2019-01-06T06:47:00Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Correct me if I’m wrong here, but isn’t this issue much bigger than any wall? > > I mean, we have the executive branch using force to make the legislature to pass a law it doesn’t want to pass. Is that how it’s supposed to work? Isn’t congress supposed to be the one making the laws? > > Don’t look now, but I think you guys are in the middle of a constitutional crisis. That’s not really the problem. As bad as Trump has been for the US, the bigger problem for the last decade has been McConnell. There is no reason except for his political scheming that the Senate couldn’t have a vote on the various House bills, and if they pass and Trump vetoes see if the houses can get enough votes to override the vetoes. I’m not saying that McConnell having a fatal heart attack would fix the Senate, but it wouldn’t hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-chance-of-a-essential-government-employee-strike/827251/50 "2019-01-06T07:01:31Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > That’s not really the problem. As bad as Trump has been for the US, the bigger problem for the last decade has been McConnell. There is no reason except for his political scheming that the Senate couldn’t have a vote on the various House bills, and if they pass and Trump vetoes see if the houses can get enough votes to override the vetoes. > > I’m not saying that McConnell having a fatal heart attack would fix the Senate, but it wouldn’t hurt. No, I think this is bigger even than McConnell or Trump. This is about the executive branch of government holding too much power, and Congress having to put it in its place. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-chance-of-a-essential-government-employee-strike/827251/51 "2019-01-06T08:54:17Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > The big difference here is the public will be overwhelmingly for the strikers. They aren’t after a pay raise, they just want to not have to go to work without getting paid. Almost everyone can sympathize with that. Really? I think it more likely that there’s a contingent out there that won’t give a f\*\*\* as long as their income is untouched and view government workers as sub-human servants. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-chance-of-a-essential-government-employee-strike/827251/52 "2019-01-06T08:57:25Z")
> [@Tempe\_Jeff](#): > > $26 Billion to reduce ‘Anchor Babies’ is a drop in the Bucket. Our Public Schools suffer from a huge amount of illegal children attending for the ‘Free Breakfast’ and ‘Free Lunch’ provided by the Feds. If you won’t feed your darned kids, get back home. I am not conceding that there’s any truth to this (the idea that immigrants are coming to America for EBT benefits is laughable), but I just have to question the logic and morality of anyone who would spend $26 billion dollars so they didn’t have to feed kids lunch. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-chance-of-a-essential-government-employee-strike/827251/53 "2019-01-06T09:34:34Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > The big difference here is the public will be overwhelmingly for the strikers. They aren’t after a pay raise, they just want to not have to go to work without getting paid. Almost everyone can sympathize with that. But the PATCO strikers were _not_ asking for a pay raise. Kind of the opposite: they wanted fewer hours (in a high-stress job). Their misfortune was that Reagan was able to sub for them using USAF personnel, which is why he was able to fire them. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-chance-of-a-essential-government-employee-strike/827251/54 "2019-01-06T10:08:00Z")
What’s the size of the air travel industry now vs in 1981, both in absolute terms as well as a percentage of people’s travel? Would it even be feasible to do the same thing now as was done then? \*Could \*all the ATCs be replaced? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-chance-of-a-essential-government-employee-strike/827251/55 "2019-01-06T10:31:36Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > This is not as true as one might think. Following previous shutdowns, congress passed a bill paying workers for their time. But there’s no guarantee this will happen during the current or future shutdowns. There’s no guarantee that furloughed workers will be paid, but AFAIK the government can’t renege on paying people who have _already worked_, because they’re owed a debt. Which is, I think, the rationale for the whole “shutdown” concept as we’ve had it since the Carter administration. If people weren’t legally entitled to pay for their labor, there would be no need to furlough the non-essential employees. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-chance-of-a-essential-government-employee-strike/827251/56 "2019-01-06T10:33:30Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What’s the size of the air travel industry now vs in 1981, both in absolute terms as well as a percentage of people’s travel? Would it even be feasible to do the same thing now as was done then? \*Could \*all the ATCs be replaced? We couldn’t immediately replace all 11,000 fired ATC’s in 1981 even with utilizing military ATC’s - because the military needs some, too. Right now the system needs about 15,000 controllers on duty any given day. It takes 3 years to train a new controller. _At best_, if you fired all the current ATC’s, or they all walked off the job (or just a large percentage of them) you’d be under-staffed for _three years_ which means either limiting flights or accepting greater risk. In practice, it took about 10 years to fully re-staff the ATC system after 1981. I don’t see where we’d do it any faster these days. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-chance-of-a-essential-government-employee-strike/827251/57 "2019-01-06T10:39:36Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > There’s no guarantee that furloughed workers will be paid, but AFAIK the government can’t renege on paying people who have _already worked_, because they’re owed a debt. > > Which is, I think, the rationale for the whole “shutdown” concept as we’ve had it since the Carter administration. If people weren’t legally entitled to pay for their labor, there would be no need to furlough the non-essential employees. Can Congress, say, decide to offer interest-free loans to federal workers working without pay, equal to the amount of money they would have been making? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-chance-of-a-essential-government-employee-strike/827251/58 "2019-01-06T10:52:41Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > We couldn’t immediately replace all 11,000 fired ATC’s in 1981 even with utilizing military ATC’s - because the military needs some, too. Right now the system needs about 15,000 controllers on duty any given day. > > It takes 3 years to train a new controller. > > _At best_, if you fired all the current ATC’s, or they all walked off the job (or just a large percentage of them) you’d be under-staffed for _three years_ which means either limiting flights or accepting greater risk. In practice, it took about 10 years to fully re-staff the ATC system after 1981. I don’t see where we’d do it any faster these days. Thanks. Question is - is the general public more used to air travel as a “right” nowadays, that they’d put up with more than a few days of that level of reduction? I don’t know about the US, but for us, air travel was much more of a luxury back then, there weren’t budget airlines or near as much air travel - buses and trains and roadtrips were still a viable option for holidays. Business travel wasn’t as much of a thing, either. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-chance-of-a-essential-government-employee-strike/827251/59 "2019-01-06T12:17:04Z")
> [@Tempe\_Jeff](#): > > … 26 Billion for the wall is small-potatoes. Why are you HONESTLY opposed? Because the wall is a stupid idea that will have environmental impacts for… ever. There are better ways to do this. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2019, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-chance-of-a-essential-government-employee-strike/827251/60 "2019-01-06T12:55:46Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > But the PATCO strikers were _not_ asking for a pay raise. Kind of the opposite: they wanted fewer hours (in a high-stress job). Their misfortune was that Reagan was able to sub for them using USAF personnel, which is why he was able to fire them. They were negotiating for a pay raise as well as shorter hours. That is a huge difference to “we want to get paid for working”. There would be massive public support for them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-chance-of-a-essential-government-employee-strike/827251.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-chance-of-a-essential-government-employee-strike/827251.md?page=4)