# Any cultures give up on agriculture? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 9, 2015, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cultures-give-up-on-agriculture/727348 "2015-08-09T01:08:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cultures-give-up-on-agriculture/727348/21 "2015-08-09T06:58:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > There is no evidence of a global flood after the emergence of _H. sapiens_ ~200k years ago and no evidence of historical figure “Noah”. Did you mean for this to be a Cafe Society thread discussing fiction? The OP is about a factual question but I thought I might also share my reason for asking it. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cultures-give-up-on-agriculture/727348/22 "2015-08-09T07:02:39Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > In Tolkiens Middle Earth the dwarfs did almost no farming but instead, focused on mining and refining raw metals and traded for food. They still relied on agriculture ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cultures-give-up-on-agriculture/727348/23 "2015-08-09T07:02:29Z")
Re: Cain and Abel: herding is also essentially a form of farming, and nomadic pastoralists are very different from hunter-gatherers. The biblical story probably originates from conflicts between pastoralists and agriculturalists that were common in the Bronze Age, and indeed later: Huns vs. Romans, Arabs vs. Persians and Byzantines, Mongols vs. Chinese, Sioux vs. American, etc. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cultures-give-up-on-agriculture/727348/24 "2015-08-09T07:05:29Z")
> [@TSBG](#): > > I’m a litlle confused. Is JohnClay asking for archaeological evidence that confirms the Bible, or that contradicts it? I’m wondering if there is evidence that confirms the bible but I’m skeptical about it. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cultures-give-up-on-agriculture/727348/25 "2015-08-09T08:11:43Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Re: Cain and Abel: herding is also essentially a form of farming, and nomadic pastoralists are very different from hunter-gatherers. The biblical story probably originates from conflicts between pastoralists and agriculturalists that were common in the Bronze Age, and indeed later: Huns vs. Romans, Arabs vs. Persians and Byzantines, Mongols vs. Chinese, Sioux vs. American, etc. I grew up reading Zane Gray etc. Many stories concerned battles between Settlers (farmers) and Ranchers in the American West. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cultures-give-up-on-agriculture/727348/26 "2015-08-09T08:21:55Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Re: Cain and Abel: herding is also essentially a form of farming, and nomadic pastoralists are very different from hunter-gatherers. The biblical story probably originates from conflicts between pastoralists and agriculturalists that were common in the Bronze Age, and indeed later: Huns vs. Romans, Arabs vs. Persians and Byzantines, Mongols vs. Chinese, Sioux vs. American, etc. Arabs and Mongols were not totally pastoralists though, the image yes, but the reality no so much. I think some Sioux also were settled. Although you could do worse then spend an afternoon reading [1177BC, the Year Civilisation Collapsed](http://www.amazon.com/1177-B-C-Civilization-Collapsed-Turning/dp/0691140898/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top?ie=UTF8). Its about the collapse of the civilisations in the Med Basin around (duh) 1177 B.C due to the Sea Peoples… it does discuss at some length what happens when a peoples abandon agriculture/a settled existance. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_of\_Words](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f6c823/32.png) [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cultures-give-up-on-agriculture/727348/27 "2015-08-09T08:44:07Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > In Tolkiens Middle Earth the dwarfs did almost no farming but instead, focused on mining and refining raw metals and traded for food. I thought some of them farmed mushrooms deep below the earth, but the bible makes no mention of mushrooms _or_ dwarves, so I may be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cultures-give-up-on-agriculture/727348/28 "2015-08-09T10:39:49Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > That’s very interesting. Did they have agricultural ancestors? It makes a lot of sense that dwarves would be miners and smelters instead of farmers. I think you’ve found a case that would satisfy the OPs parameters. I mentioned it more as a joke but as trade opportunities arise and some groups become more focused on certain areas, I can see them abandoning farms so for example an Irish clan which makes its living off of fishing would then trade those fish for farm goods. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cultures-give-up-on-agriculture/727348/29 "2015-08-09T10:45:52Z")
Back to the OP. I think another would be countries where due to the limits of arable land and population growth, import nearly all of their food. I believe Taiwan would be an example. Also certain islands in the Pacific which have poor soil conditions but income from tourism or resources may abandon farming. Iceland once had farming. Italy grows few grain crops and few cattle but does have better soil conditions for vineyards. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cultures-give-up-on-agriculture/727348/30 "2015-08-09T11:07:35Z")
Urbanredneck: Though I didn’t explicitly say it, I wanted cultures that import crops to be excluded. I had countries like Australia in mind where when Europeans arrived they found no sign of agriculture. I was wondering if it was reasonable to suspect that aborigines might have originally known about agriculture but then lost the knowledge of the concept. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cultures-give-up-on-agriculture/727348/31 "2015-08-09T12:14:16Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > …My great grandparents were farmers and none of that knowledge was passed down to me. However, that knowledge is still part of your culture and is available to you if you go down to your local library and ask for books on how to farm. I believe the OP is talking about cases where knowledge of agriculture was literally lost by an entire culture or tribe. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cultures-give-up-on-agriculture/727348/32 "2015-08-09T12:22:00Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > In Tolkiens Middle Earth the dwarfs did almost no farming but instead, focused on mining and refining raw metals and traded for food. However, “almost no farming” does not mean “no farming”, and we all know that the proportion of people involved in agriculture has changed in the past hundred years. For example, the percentage of the US population that is directly involved in agriculture has fallen, but the US still remains dependent on agriculture for food production and also for export. Just because your grandparents gave up on farming doesn’t mean that your country did, nor does it mean that you couldn’t go become a farmer today if it sparked your interest. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cultures-give-up-on-agriculture/727348/33 "2015-08-09T12:23:44Z")
Hunter/gatherer societies require a pretty low population density and/or being sited in an area with unusually high productivity of edible stuff, be that fish or small game or fruit or … So we’re going to be looking for small societies in the better areas of the Earth. And given the OP’s stricture that they have no knowledge of agriculture & no trade with those who do, it needs to be long enough ago that these folks haven’t been impacted by commerce or post-Mesopotamian modernity. IOW, we’re looking for either recently “discovered” isolated tribes or nomads from gosh-knows-when. Nomads don’t tend to leave a lot of concentrated artifacts for current archaeologists to find. My IMO Bottom line: I suspect that even if such groups exist(ed), they’d be hard for us to identify as such. Finding evidence that some current / historical group doesn’t / didn’t practice agriculture is challenging. Proving that the same mobile group never did practice agriculture is much more difficult. IMO bordering on impossible. And trying to link any of this to fairy tales whether authored recently by Tolkien or 2000 years ago by authors unknown is silly. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cultures-give-up-on-agriculture/727348/34 "2015-08-09T13:39:12Z")
Keep in mind that even those “uncontested peoples” in the Amazon that we read about from time to time are farmers. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cultures-give-up-on-agriculture/727348/35 "2015-08-09T13:44:21Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Back to the OP. > > I think another would be countries where due to the limits of arable land and population growth, import nearly all of their food. > > I believe Taiwan would be an example. Also certain islands in the Pacific which have poor soil conditions but income from tourism or resources may abandon farming. > > Iceland once had farming. > > Italy grows few grain crops and few cattle but does have better soil conditions for vineyards. Are you serious? None of those cultures is without agriculture and it would be absurd to claim that they had lost knowledge of it. Any modern, industrial society is going to have some agriculture. The OP was quite specific not only about “no agriculture”, but also no knowledge of it. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cultures-give-up-on-agriculture/727348/36 "2015-08-09T14:11:28Z")
I can think of one culture that was forced to abandoned agriculture and lost all knowledge of it: Jewish culture. For many centuries, Jews were forbidden from owning land or working it as serfs, and it was only in the early 20th Century did Jews start farming again in any considerable numbers. Jews never became hunter-gatherers, though. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cultures-give-up-on-agriculture/727348/37 "2015-08-09T14:26:53Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I can think of one culture that was forced to abandoned agriculture and lost all knowledge of it: Jewish culture. For many centuries, Jews were forbidden from owning land or working it as serfs, and it was only in the early 20th Century did Jews start farming again in any considerable numbers. > > Jews never became hunter-gatherers, though. In Europe maybe, but what about in Mesopotamia? Although, its an interesting example (and Parsee in the sub continent are another one), Jews did not lose knowledge of agriculture, which what I think that the OP is looking for. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cultures-give-up-on-agriculture/727348/38 "2015-08-09T14:28:49Z")
Reversion to a hunter-gatherer lifestyle seems to be pretty rare. [This paper](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1044832/) suggests that the Mlabri tribe, a hunter-gatherer group of Northern Thailand, originally derived from an agricultural group. The Mlabri are small in number - about 300 individuals - and the evidence suggests “an extreme founder event from an agricultural group, followed by adoption of a hunting–gathering lifestyle”. [QUOTE=] In sum, genetic, linguistic, and cultural data all suggest a founding event in the Mlabri, involving a single maternal lineage and 1–4 paternal lineages some 500–1,000 y ago, from an ancestral agricultural population. The Mlabri then subsequently adopted their present hunting and gathering lifestyle, possibly because the group size at the time of founding was too small to support an agricultural lifestyle. [/QUOTE] The Mlabri vocabulary and folklore “give some evidence of ancient familiarity with agriculture coexisting with hunting and gathering”. The Malbri have extremely low genetic diversity: “no other human population has been found to lack mtDNA HV1 variation”; “the Y-STR haplotype diversity in the Mlabri is again lower than that reported for any other human population”. The paper concludes that the “lack of mtDNA diversity in the Mlabri is most consistent with a very small founding population size, perhaps even only one female lineage”. Interestingly, neighbouring people have this to say on the origin of the Mlabri: [QUOTE=] …the Tin Prai people have an oral tradition concerning the origin of the Mlabri, in which several hundred years ago, Tin Prai villagers expelled two children and sent them downriver on a raft. They survived and escaped into the forest, turning to a foraging lifestyle and thus becoming the Mlabri. Although it is difficult to know how to evaluate such oral traditions, this story nevertheless intriguingly parallels the genetic and linguistic evidence concerning the origins of the Mlabri. [/QUOTE] The paper also lists other examples of agricultural populations reverting to the hunter-gatherer lifestyle: [QUOTE=] Other examples of such cultural reversion are rare; probably the best known involves Polynesian hunter–gatherers on the Chatham Islands and the South Island of New Zealand, who abandoned agriculture and adopted a maritime-based foraging subsistence because of the rich marine resources and the inability of these islands to support cultivation of tropical crops. Other hypothesized examples of cultural reversion, such as the Punan of Borneo, the Guajá and other lowland Amazonian groups, and the Sirionó of Bolivia, are controversial, as it is not clear whether these groups are descended directly from earlier hunter–gatherer groups or whether they indeed have undergone cultural reversion. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cultures-give-up-on-agriculture/727348/39 "2015-08-09T15:02:35Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Reversion to a hunter-gatherer lifestyle seems to be pretty rare. > > [This paper](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1044832/) suggests that the Mlabri tribe, a hunter-gatherer group of Northern Thailand, originally derived from an agricultural group. The Mlabri are small in number - about 300 individuals - and the evidence suggests “an extreme founder event from an agricultural group, followed by adoption of a hunting–gathering lifestyle”. > > The Mlabri vocabulary and folklore “give some evidence of ancient familiarity with agriculture coexisting with hunting and gathering”. > > The Malbri have extremely low genetic diversity: “no other human population has been found to lack mtDNA HV1 variation”; “the Y-STR haplotype diversity in the Mlabri is again lower than that reported for any other human population”. The paper concludes that the “lack of mtDNA diversity in the Mlabri is most consistent with a very small founding population size, perhaps even only one female lineage”. > > Interestingly, neighbouring people have this to say on the origin of the Mlabri: > > The paper also lists other examples of agricultural populations reverting to the hunter-gatherer lifestyle: And how many of those groups would be unaware of the existence of agriculture? I doubt that any would be. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cultures-give-up-on-agriculture/727348/40 "2015-08-09T15:22:36Z")
The Amazon rainforest appears to have contained vast, heavily farmed landscapes in 1491. I dont know how many Amazon tribes continued small scale farming, but I dont think it is impossible that some reverted to a total hunter-gatherer lifestyle. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cultures-give-up-on-agriculture/727348.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-cultures-give-up-on-agriculture/727348.md?page=3)