# Any defensible value to "racial consciousness," "racial loyalty," etc?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-defensible-value-to-racial-consciousness-racial-loyalty-etc/533022
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [March 19, 2010, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-defensible-value-to-racial-consciousness-racial-loyalty-etc/533022 "2010-03-19T15:44:25Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [March 19, 2010, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-defensible-value-to-racial-consciousness-racial-loyalty-etc/533022/1 "2010-03-19T15:44:25Z")
Sort of a followup to [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=556158) (see second issue post for debate in the OP, to which no one, yet, has commented in that thread).
In [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=547410) on American “white nationalism” and immigration, **LonesomePolecat** [posted:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12201190&postcount=90)
> [@](#):
>
> As our ancestors founded the country to be a home for themselves and their posterity, not for everyone from everywhere around the world, and as it can’t possibly be a good thing for whites to be reduced to a minority in our own homeland, it is sheer insanity to insist that an immigration policy which introduces large populations of alien races and cultures into our midst could possibly be a fair and just policy. Radically changing the racial and ethnic demographics of our society without the consent of the majority is not a fair and just, non-racist policy. It is anti-white racism.
I’m just trying to flesh out the thinking implied here. Leave aside, for the moment, the question of whether one “race” is smarter than another by heredity, or psychologically different from another by heredity in any other way. Is there any defensible value in the concepts of “racial consciousness” or “racial identity” or “racial loyalty”? That is, in defining “us” vs. “them” in racial terms (as opposed to, say, cultural terms, or ideological terms)? And then trying to “defend” or “preserve” your own “race,” perhaps even to the extent of siding with your own “race” as against others in the same way you would side with your own family against others, not necessarily because it is in any way better than others but just because it is yours.
E.g., is there any real value in the [Fourteen Words](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words) WNs proclaim?
And, if so, is it a value that would still hold if another race-name were substituted for “white” in that sentence?
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [March 19, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-defensible-value-to-racial-consciousness-racial-loyalty-etc/533022/2 "2010-03-19T16:04:04Z")
See also [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=555430) on the Dalai Lama’s stated concern with preserving the ethnic purity of Tibet from Han-Chinese colonization.
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### Author:  [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)
#### Post date: [March 19, 2010, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-defensible-value-to-racial-consciousness-racial-loyalty-etc/533022/3 "2010-03-19T16:09:26Z")
Whoops
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### Author:  [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)
#### Post date: [March 19, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-defensible-value-to-racial-consciousness-racial-loyalty-etc/533022/4 "2010-03-19T16:20:22Z")
> [@](#):
>
> As our ancestors founded the country to be a home for themselves and their posterity, not for everyone from everywhere around the world
Our ancestors ARE from all around the world.
> [@](#):
>
> and as it can’t possibly be a good thing for whites to be reduced to a minority in our own homeland
It most certainly can (not that it’s happening soon); what our “ancestors” had in mind is quite irrelevant to the modern situation.
> [@](#):
>
> it is sheer insanity to insist that an immigration policy which introduces large populations of alien races and cultures into our midst could possibly be a fair and just policy
When the antecedents fail, the argument fails.
> [@](#):
>
> Radically changing the racial and ethnic demographics of our society without the consent of the majority
is not going to happen?
> [@](#):
>
> is not a fair and just, non-racist policy. It is anti-white racism
Never mind.
That said, racial loyalty is a valuable survival mechanism for persecuted minorities. For those who are merely outnumbered and resent having to share, or (like most white nationalists) aren’t outnumbered but resent that being in a racial majority doesn’t win you any prizes, it’s just pathetic and creepy.
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### Author:  [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)
#### Post date: [March 19, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-defensible-value-to-racial-consciousness-racial-loyalty-etc/533022/5 "2010-03-19T16:53:30Z")
I rarely admit this, but, hey, if not to 35,000 dopers, then to whom shall I confess it?
I always kind of ‘understood’ where white supremicists where coming from. If you are truly in fear of annihilation…I mean, if you look at your daughter marry a black man, and the kid comes out as what you and everyone else in this society considers maybe black but definitely not white, I can see how one might feel…like his self is ending… Hard to explain, I guess, but I get where they are coming from.
As for races that are commonly oppressed, I think it is natural for them to develop some ‘racial pride’, and it is probably good for their survival to do so. I mean, black kids coming up today can benefit from some ‘black is beautiful’ propaganda, if just to offset the the media standards of white beauty in this society. Individually, it can help them, if they look at being black as a being in a family that they see as beautiful.
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### Author:  [@kingbighair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingbighair)
#### Post date: [March 19, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-defensible-value-to-racial-consciousness-racial-loyalty-etc/533022/6 "2010-03-19T23:18:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> Is there any defensible value in the concepts of “racial consciousness” or “racial identity” or “racial loyalty”? That is, in defining “us” vs. “them” in racial terms (as opposed to, say, cultural terms, or ideological terms)? And then trying to “defend” or “preserve” your own “race,” perhaps even to the extent of siding with your own “race” as against others in the same way you would side with your own family against others, not necessarily because it is in any way better than others but just because it is yours.
Racial consciousness or identity is simply a reflection of the realities faced by different races in society. At least in this country (US), certain races were discriminated against in every imaginable fashion. Despite wishes to the contrary, people are treated in identifiable ways solely because of the color of their skin. Recognizing your race then becomes recognizing an empathetic understanding of the history of this treatment, both positive and negative. Racial identity therefore does not come from the members of the race themselves, but as a reaction to the way a common group has been treated by a majority. I see no problem with this, and wanting to preserve your race is something that should be encouraged. In this regard, race is just an indicator of common experience.
The problem is when the desire to preserve your race is a desire to preserve what you think are characteristics endemic to your race that are superior to others.
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### Author:  [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-defensible-value-to-racial-consciousness-racial-loyalty-etc/533022/7 "2010-03-20T01:17:21Z")
Oh, Come On People… I’m an American Mutt, but all the ancestry _ **I** _ have that’s politically correct, and I can actually _prove_ is “injun” ancestry. My siblings have married “niggers”, “spics”, [it’s interesting that my browser objects to the spelling of “Spic”, but doesn’t object to “Nigger”] and one of them married a “really HOT” Norwegian red-head. WHY should we care about the racial distinctions that the “race hustler” dipshits make? If it really matters, I claim “nigger”, “spic”, “indian”, and I will figure what else I qualify for, in order to claim it. **I am an american MUTT, and I’m PROUD of that.**
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-defensible-value-to-racial-consciousness-racial-loyalty-etc/533022/8 "2010-03-20T19:40:35Z")
> [@Nametag](#):
>
> That said, racial loyalty is a valuable survival mechanism for persecuted minorities. For those who are merely outnumbered and resent having to share, or (like most white nationalists) aren’t outnumbered but resent that being in a racial majority doesn’t win you any prizes, it’s just pathetic and creepy.
Suppose the younger generation of American Ethnistanis are clearly melting in the melting-pot, adopting the default-customs of the majority in American society, marrying non-Ethnistanis more often than they marry within their own native group, and traditionalists of the elder generation of Ethnistanis are concerned “their people” are going to “vanish.” Is that a legitimate concern?
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### Author:  [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-defensible-value-to-racial-consciousness-racial-loyalty-etc/533022/9 "2010-03-20T19:49:36Z")
“question all authority” except when authority tells you what is and is not defensible about political views vis-a-vis ethnicity, right? We gotta be “critical thinkers”, but make sure to be critical of what the great and the good tell you?
Some people and groups may believe they would benefit from such attitudes. Some of them might in fact benefit, others might suffer in the long run (some of them even got part of their country taken by the Russians for a space of 45 years). Other people and groups may think that they would benefit from diametrically distinct opinions on the matter - again, whether they are right or wrong only time will tell.
Overall, it’s called freedom. Freedom of association, freedom of speech, freedom of political movement, freedom of choice. Freedom to be “silent majority” and freedom to be “strident minority”. This is a notion foreign to tyrants and tyrant wannabes, but popular amongst the people nevertheless.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-defensible-value-to-racial-consciousness-racial-loyalty-etc/533022/10 "2010-03-20T20:13:39Z")
> [@code\_grey](#):
>
> “question all authority” except when authority tells you what is and is not defensible about political views vis-a-vis ethnicity, right? We gotta be “critical thinkers”, but make sure to be critical of what the great and the good tell you?
>
> Some people and groups may believe they would benefit from such attitudes. Some of them might in fact benefit, others might suffer in the long run (some of them even got part of their country taken by the Russians for a space of 45 years). Other people and groups may think that they would benefit from diametrically distinct opinions on the matter - again, whether they are right or wrong only time will tell.
>
> Overall, it’s called freedom. Freedom of association, freedom of speech, freedom of political movement, freedom of choice. Freedom to be “silent majority” and freedom to be “strident minority”. This is a notion foreign to tyrants and tyrant wannabes, but popular amongst the people nevertheless.
What part of this semi-coherent rant is in any way responsive to the OP?
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### Author:  [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-defensible-value-to-racial-consciousness-racial-loyalty-etc/533022/11 "2010-03-20T20:40:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> What part of this semi-coherent rant is in any way responsive to the OP?
it’s time to question the questioners of defensibility, comrade. Subvert the dominant paradigm 🙂
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### Author:  [@DaveRaver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaveRaver)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-defensible-value-to-racial-consciousness-racial-loyalty-etc/533022/12 "2010-03-20T22:23:40Z")
Encourage all citizens to write in “American” as their race on the Census form!
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### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2010, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-defensible-value-to-racial-consciousness-racial-loyalty-etc/533022/13 "2010-03-20T23:31:30Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#):
>
> I rarely admit this, but, hey, if not to 35,000 dopers, then to whom shall I confess it?
>
> I always kind of ‘understood’ where white supremicists where coming from. If you are truly in fear of annihilation…I mean, if you look at your daughter marry a black man, and the kid comes out as what you and everyone else in this society considers maybe black but definitely not white, I can see how one might feel…like his self is ending… Hard to explain, I guess, but I get where they are coming from.
>
> As for races that are commonly oppressed, I think it is natural for them to develop some ‘racial pride’, and it is probably good for their survival to do so. I mean, black kids coming up today can benefit from some ‘black is beautiful’ propaganda, if just to offset the the media standards of white beauty in this society. Individually, it can help them, if they look at being black as a being in a family that they see as beautiful.
I thought this was an excellent, insightful post. Well done.
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### Author:  [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2010, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-defensible-value-to-racial-consciousness-racial-loyalty-etc/533022/14 "2010-03-21T02:13:49Z")
I want my descendants to have the best possible genetics. If that means marrying outside my “race” then so be it. As long as they are my actual descendants, my “people” have not disappeared. My “mixed race” descendants ARE my people, regardless of the “other race” mixed in with mine.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2010, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-defensible-value-to-racial-consciousness-racial-loyalty-etc/533022/15 "2010-03-21T10:42:16Z")
I view notions of race & ethnicity the same way I view culture - not intrinsically valuable in and of itself, only worth retaining if they are of benefit to humanity in general, as determined by my morals and values. Very little that falls under the banner of race/ethnicity makes the cut, I’m afraid, and very little in the way of cultural supremacy either.
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### Author:  [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2010, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-defensible-value-to-racial-consciousness-racial-loyalty-etc/533022/16 "2010-03-21T12:41:40Z")
No, there is no value in the Fourteen Words; it’s right up there with “black pride” for inanity.
There is something about “racial consciousness” and “racial loyalty” which is atavistic, I think, and deeply wired into our genes. A general tendency toward the preservation of self followed by family followed by clan seems to be a common character trait.
Defending one’s own race from “attack” by other races in today’s world seems to be the domain of the paranoid and the nutball. For the most part I think the Fourteen Word fruitcakes are marginalized souls with little thought penetration into the mainstream. It’s my observation the average individual (and, by extension, the average “race”) is simply interested in their piece of the pie–not domination and not even ethnic purity of some sort.
There is a catch-22 in trying to eliminate race consciousness: If races are not innately equal, the pie will not be evenly distributed by race. If the pie is not evenly distributed by race, it will be difficult to eliminate race consciousness.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-defensible-value-to-racial-consciousness-racial-loyalty-etc/533022/17 "2010-03-21T18:19:07Z")
> [@code\_grey](#):
>
> it’s time to question the questioners of defensibility, comrade. Subvert the dominant paradigm 🙂
Then why don’t you try to actually do so? That’s what this thread is for.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-defensible-value-to-racial-consciousness-racial-loyalty-etc/533022/18 "2010-03-21T18:49:03Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#):
>
> There is a catch-22 in trying to eliminate race consciousness: If races are not innately equal, the pie will not be evenly distributed by race. If the pie is not evenly distributed by race, it will be difficult to eliminate race consciousness.
You are assuming a meritocratic society where individual ability correlates closely with distribution of goods, and there are no non-meritocratic social or economic advantages or disadvantages to being born into a particular family, or social class, or racial/ethnic group. That is not true of the U.S. at present, nor of most other societies.
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### Author:  [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-defensible-value-to-racial-consciousness-racial-loyalty-etc/533022/19 "2010-03-21T19:08:09Z")
To me it’s kind of bullshit. But then I’m not just a white man, I’m a redhead. So long as the red pigment survives, I’m happy. 😛
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-defensible-value-to-racial-consciousness-racial-loyalty-etc/533022/20 "2010-03-21T19:18:16Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#):
>
> To me it’s kind of bullshit. But then I’m not just a white man, I’m a redhead. So long as the red pigment survives, I’m happy. 😛
Fine, if you don’t care whether your descendants have souls or not . . .
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