# Any Dopers change their view on gay issues? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 4, 2003, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-dopers-change-their-view-on-gay-issues/211407 "2003-11-04T19:29:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-dopers-change-their-view-on-gay-issues/211407/61 "2003-11-09T02:30:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by panache45 \* > \*\*Thank you \*so \*much for being part of the “lunatic fringe.” Moderates have never moved mountains, let alone the entire world. > > Though my views on gay issues didn’t need changing, I no longer feel like a solitary voice in the wilderness. \*\* Hmm. Your first sentence sounds sarcastic, but that doesn’t fit with the rest of your post. Am I being whooshed? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-dopers-change-their-view-on-gay-issues/211407/62 "2003-11-09T02:37:04Z")
> [@](#): > > . . . I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that you simply did not see, or did not grasp the significance of, the quote marks surrounding the phrase “gay rights”. I am in favor of civil rights for blacks, but I am not entirely in favor of “civil rights” for blacks. The use of the quote marks signifies that the term refers to others’ use, not to its actual meaning. While I understand the hostility towards those that oppose the very idea of rights for gays or blacks, I find it rather intolerant to be hostile to those that disagree as to what those rights are. \*\* Nope, can’t parse it. ---
**Author:** ![Zhen\_ka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecccb3/32.png) [@Zhen\_ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zhen_ka)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-dopers-change-their-view-on-gay-issues/211407/63 "2003-11-09T05:41:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*_Originally posted by panache45:_ > Thank you so much for being part of the “lunatic fringe.” Moderates have never moved mountains, let alone the entire world. > > Though my views on gay issues didn’t need changing, I no longer feel like a solitary voice in the wilderness.\*\* > [@](#): > > \*\*_Originally posted by lissener_ > Hmm. > > Your first sentence sounds sarcastic, but that doesn’t fit with the rest of your post. Am I being whooshed?\*\* **lissener** , FWIW, I didn’t read sarcasm, just a thoughtful expression of gratitude. To answer your question, the SDMB didn’t change my views on homosexuality (or any of the other amazing varieties of love that exist), but it did get me to stop using the word “cocksucker.” I thank all of the posters out there who took the time to explain why a word I once thought harmless could, in fact, hurt others. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-dopers-change-their-view-on-gay-issues/211407/64 "2003-11-09T07:30:01Z")
It hasnt cause me to change my position on big issues, but it did change my former classification of prisoners who avail/force themselves of other inmates. While I still don’t believe they are a 0 on the Scale (or is it 6?), I don’t think they are as far down the scale as I once did. This in large part came because of my arguments about the classification of pedophilia as an orientation rather than a lifestyle. After all, if it is possible to prey on children without an orientation towards them, making the “lifestyle” and orientation separate, then it is also possible to prey on your own grown-up, gender without being a homosexual. Of course, some people will have a problem with my second paragraph but not the first. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-dopers-change-their-view-on-gay-issues/211407/65 "2003-11-09T11:59:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\*Hmm. > > Your first sentence sounds sarcastic, but that doesn’t fit with the rest of your post. Am I being whooshed? \*\* Definitely \*\*not \*\*sarcasm; sorry if it sounded that way. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-dopers-change-their-view-on-gay-issues/211407/66 "2003-11-09T16:05:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ludovic \* > It hasnt cause me to change my position on big issues, but it did change my former classification of prisoners who avail/force themselves of other inmates. While I still don’t believe they are a 0 on the Scale (or is it 6?), I don’t think they are as far down the scale as I once did. > > This in large part came because of my arguments about the classification of pedophilia as an orientation rather than a lifestyle. After all, if it is possible to prey on children without an orientation towards them, making the “lifestyle” and orientation separate, then it is also possible to prey on your own grown-up, gender without being a homosexual. Of course, some people will have a problem with my second paragraph but not the first. Go figure. I just don’t see the connection. You say that the reason you changed your perception of the sexual orientation of inmates who commit prison rape is that you discovered that pedophilia is “an orientation rather than a lifestyle.” How does one lead to the other? (i.e., how does the designation of pedophiles impact the designation of prison rapists?) ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-dopers-change-their-view-on-gay-issues/211407/67 "2003-11-09T19:42:59Z")
**sleeping** : consistency. Behavior does not necessarily indicate orientation. ---
**Author:** ![Splutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5fc32e/32.png) [@Splutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Splutter)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-dopers-change-their-view-on-gay-issues/211407/68 "2003-11-09T21:40:50Z")
**Lissener:** I’m sorry, but you miss the point entirely. My sexuality is inseparable from my self, but it’s still only incidental to who I am. Lissener I’ve always subscribed to this belief… that one’s sexuality is just one of many (important) things that defines a person. Hence I’ve always wondered why its a big issue for so many people in this “enlightened” age. Of course I’d negleted to notice that sadly much of the world isn’t as enlightened as me. 😃 I’ve recently had a friend come out, and my first thought was “Why didn’t you tell us earlier? We are your friends…” But what I’d never stopped to consider is how obsessed people can be about others sexuality, and how this can get in the way of getting to know someone as a complete person. My friend is very comfortable with his sexuality (his mother isn’t but that’s another story) but he didn’t want it to be the overwhelming thing that defined him. So even enlightened old me (:D) has developed a new appreciation (thanks to my friend) of what life can be like when you have to deal with society’s day-to-day assumptions and judgements. Like how “actually, I’m gay” is a far bigger deal than “actually, I’m left handed”, and how tiring this can be for him. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-dopers-change-their-view-on-gay-issues/211407/69 "2003-11-09T21:41:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ludovic \* > **sleeping** : consistency. Yes, that’s what I was looking for. > [@](#): > > Behavior does not necessarily indicate orientation. I agree that behavior does not necessarily indicate the overall orientation (that is, labelling a person as homosexual, heterosexual or bisexual). However, it does indicate that that person has _some_ desire for a member of that gender. For example, a man who lead a completely heterosexual lifestyle while he was free, and engages in homosexual sex while in prison, can be considered straight, but on the Kinsey scale he would not be a zero (he is more straight than gay, but he could not be totally straight). The rationale for this is that he had to have some pre-existing desire for men, but it was trumped by his desire for women. With no women around, he went to his second choice. (This can also be seen as the desire for sex overcoming a person’s focus on a particular lifestyle.) On to your second point: pedophilia does not have to be an orientation; it can be a lifestyle. That’s sort of true, but I’m not sure the examples are comparable. When the man is in prison, he wants to have, there are no women around, so he goes to his secondary orientation (if you can call it that). With the pedophile, he is free to do whatever he pleases (I’m assuming he is not in prison) and he has a desire to have sex with children. [Pedophilia is a sexual attraction toward prepubescent children.] This is clearly indicative of a disorder; it is not recognized as normal. Whether or not he acts on his desire determines his lifestyle. Is this what you meant? I would also like to point out that scientific research into whether homosexuality is hereditary is not conclusive. Personally, I think it’s both the genetic disposition and the environment in which a person is raised. As for pedophilia, I think it’s just a person’s childhood experiences. Even if homosexuality was a choice, I see no reason to discriminate against gays and do not understand why people think that it _has_ to be proven to be an involuntary condition in order to be legal. It’s really quite simple: a person is free to do as he likes, as long as he isn’t hurting anyone. Consensual sex, regardless of its nature, is not detrimental to anyone. [ > [@](#): > > ]([http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/scotts/bulgarians/nih-ngltf.html](http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/scotts/bulgarians/nih-ngltf.html)) “The NIH study is an important addition to the growing body of evidence indicating a genetic basis for homosexuality in some people,” said Peri Jude Radecic, NGLTF Deputy Director of Public Policy. “And it shows that homosexuality is a naturally occurring and common variation among humans – a fact that gay and lesbian people have known all along.” > > “Regardless of the origins of homosexuality, however, discrimination based on sexual orientation is wrong and must end,” Radecic said. “This is especially true to avoid the potential unethical use of genetic studies. Because studies of human sexuality are not conducted in political and social vacuums, precautions must be taken to ensure that the studies are not used against any individuals or groups.” ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-dopers-change-their-view-on-gay-issues/211407/70 "2003-11-09T22:14:35Z")
It should also be noted that prison sex is not so much engaged in to slake sexual desire as to assert dominance. Prison sex is, in an overwhelming number of cases, not consensual. It’s rape. And it’s “I’m the man, you’re my bitch” rape. This has _nothing_ to do with homosexuality. It has everything to do with dominance and fear. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-dopers-change-their-view-on-gay-issues/211407/71 "2003-11-10T00:59:17Z")
sleeping wrote: > [@](#): > > For example, a man who lead a completely heterosexual lifestyle while he was free, and engages in homosexual sex while in prison, can be considered straight, but on the Kinsey scale he would not be a zero (he is more straight than gay, but he could not be totally straight). Yeah, that’s what I was trying to say. But I previously thought they were pretty much bi (notwithstanding their own objections and the fact that the other partner is unwilling.) > [@](#): > > This[pedophilia] is clearly indicative of a disorder; it is not recognized as normal. And yet homosexuality has always been accepted as normal. > [@](#): > > Whether or not he acts on his desire determines his lifestyle. Is this what you meant? Inasmuch as homosexual sex is also a lifestyle (i.e. not much), yes. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-dopers-change-their-view-on-gay-issues/211407/72 "2003-11-10T15:02:59Z")
So . . . if a straight man in prison is raped, that MAKES him bi? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-dopers-change-their-view-on-gay-issues/211407/73 "2003-11-10T15:17:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by panache45 \* > \*\*Definitely \*\*not \*\*sarcasm; sorry if it sounded that way. \*\* Thanks, panache. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-dopers-change-their-view-on-gay-issues/211407/74 "2003-11-10T21:36:44Z")
> [@](#): > > So . . . if a straight man in prison is raped, that MAKES him bi? > [@](#): > > But I **previously** thought they were pretty much bi (notwithstanding their own objections and the fact that the **other** partner is unwilling.) Yes, that’s exactly what I said.:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-dopers-change-their-view-on-gay-issues/211407/75 "2003-11-10T21:40:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > So . . . if a straight man in prison is raped, that MAKES him bi? No, but it does mean the rapist is not completely straight. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-dopers-change-their-view-on-gay-issues/211407/76 "2003-11-11T07:18:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sleeping \* > \*\*No, but it does mean the rapist is not completely straight. \*\* That doesn’t necessarily follow. Do you understand what rape is? Rape has very, very little to do with sexual desire, and very, very much to do with establishing dominance and striking the victim with terror and shame. Just because a sexual vehicle is used to make this happen doesn’t mean the rapist is doing it primarily to satisfy his own sexual desire. Which means the rapist doesn’t have to have an iota of bisexuality about him. It’s not about sex 90%+ of the time. It’s not about how pretty the victim is or how hot his ass is. It’s about making the victim aware of just how low he really is on the totem pole, and how painful it can be to go against the rapist. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-dopers-change-their-view-on-gay-issues/211407/77 "2003-11-11T13:30:15Z")
jayjay: if you say it enough, will it become true? ---
**Author:** ![modro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@modro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/modro)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-dopers-change-their-view-on-gay-issues/211407/78 "2003-11-11T13:57:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zhen’ka \* > To answer your question, the SDMB didn’t change my views on homosexuality (or any of the other amazing varieties of love that exist), but it did get me to stop using the word “cocksucker.” You know, some of my favorite people are cocksuckers. In fact, I think the problem with the world is that there aren’t nearly enough of them. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-dopers-change-their-view-on-gay-issues/211407/79 "2003-11-11T18:34:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ludovic \* > \*\*And yet homosexuality has always been accepted as normal. > \*\* Not strictly historically correct. In the U.S., it was regarded as a mental illness up until the early 1970s. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-dopers-change-their-view-on-gay-issues/211407/80 "2003-11-11T18:58:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ludovic \* > \*\*jayjay: if you say it enough, will it become true? \*\* It so happens it is mostly true. Hell, it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that gay men have raped women. It’s not about sex. Rape is about humiliating someone, degrading them and turning sex into a weapon. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-dopers-change-their-view-on-gay-issues/211407.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-dopers-change-their-view-on-gay-issues/211407.md?page=5)