# Any evidence "broken windows" policing is effective? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2014, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-evidence-broken-windows-policing-is-effective/707806 "2014-12-21T05:13:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-evidence-broken-windows-policing-is-effective/707806/61 "2014-12-29T07:14:35Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > Sigh. How, since no-one can ever create the first piece of graffiti in an area? The funny thing is that covering the graffiti quickly is what seems to be most effective in reducing re-occurrence. Was the NYPD arresting shop owners who didn’t clean up tagging quickly? If not how does it relate to “broken windows” policing. According to arrest records, “50% to 70% of all street-level graffiti is created by suburban adolescents” I don’t see how giving tickets to suburban kids reduces inter-city violence. Nor can I find any reliable studies that show that zero tolerance ticketing and arrests is an effective way to reduce graffiti. It also ignores studies that demonstrated moving people to parts of the city that were more “ordered” did not reduce their tendency to violate the law. Cite: [http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract\_id=743284](http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=743284) But people can dream…and as to the efficacy of broken windows policing that is all that is left. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-evidence-broken-windows-policing-is-effective/707806/62 "2014-12-29T17:06:35Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The real issue is ordering cops to enforce stupid laws. Eric Garner was hurting absolutely no one. Rather, he was messing with the revenue department’s money. In a world of rogue government, it’s actually not surprising at all that the government would prioritize its own interests so high. What happened to Eric Garner wasn’t the actions of one police officer, it was the actions of a Mafia-like organization not wanting anyone cutting in on their revenue stream. That is ignoring why the enforcement was taking place. The cops were not there because some tax revenue agency was complaining. Increased enforcement was ordered because complaints from local business owners were heard at the highest level. They were not only complaining of lost revenue for their stores due to the black market selling of cigarettes but of the general lawlessness it was causing. For instance it was reported that Garner was involved in breaking up a street fight a short time before. Should those neighborhood business owners be ignored? How is it good for the neighborhood if illegal business dealings flourish while legitimate businesses flounder? That isn’t even mentioning how blackmarket cigarettes are traditionally mafia related and the multi-million dollar Diblasio lawsuit. Minor crimes and “quality of life” crimes seem minor until they are happening to you. Should all those complainants be told to suck it up because it’s possible that someone might get hurt while resisting enforcement? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-evidence-broken-windows-policing-is-effective/707806/63 "2014-12-29T17:20:47Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > That is ignoring why the enforcement was taking place. The cops were not there because some tax revenue agency was complaining. Increased enforcement was ordered because complaints from local business owners were heard at the highest level. They were not only complaining of lost revenue for their stores due to the black market selling of cigarettes but of the general lawlessness it was causing. For instance it was reported that Garner was involved in breaking up a street fight a short time before. Should those neighborhood business owners be ignored? How is it good for the neighborhood if illegal business dealings flourish while legitimate businesses flounder? > > That isn’t even mentioning how blackmarket cigarettes are traditionally mafia related and the multi-million dollar Diblasio lawsuit. > > Minor crimes and “quality of life” crimes seem minor until they are happening to you. Should all those complainants be told to suck it up because it’s possible that someone might get hurt while resisting enforcement? What of all the local companies that are hurt by online retailers? Should the NYPD not follow around post-office workers and forcibly detain/arrest those who buy from amazon or e-bay without paying the use tax on all orders? Or is it a special type of poor person of color who requires this form of treatment? [Or are we to succumb to those who riot and block traffic when they don’t get their way and who block attempts to battle organized crime? (Spoiler: this is the NYPD)](http://www.nytimes.com/1992/09/17/nyregion/officers-rally-and-dinkins-is-their-target.html) ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-evidence-broken-windows-policing-is-effective/707806/64 "2014-12-29T20:24:25Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > What of all the local companies that are hurt by online retailers? > > Should the NYPD not follow around post-office workers and forcibly detain/arrest those who buy from amazon or e-bay without paying the use tax on all orders? > > Or is it a special type of poor person of color who requires this form of treatment? > > [Or are we to succumb to those who riot and block traffic when they don’t get their way and who block attempts to battle organized crime? (Spoiler: this is the NYPD)](http://www.nytimes.com/1992/09/17/nyregion/officers-rally-and-dinkins-is-their-target.html) How is buying from Amazon or EBay illegal? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-evidence-broken-windows-policing-is-effective/707806/65 "2014-12-30T00:46:37Z")
> [@grude](#): > > The “broken windows” theory states that tolerating or ignoring very minor crimes breeds a culture where people think they can get away with more serious crimes, and that police should harshly enforce all laws even minor ones. > > To get my bias out of the way I feel it probably just makes the public hate cops and view them as an occupying force instead of public servants, and probably hurts public cooperation with reporting more serious crimes. I don’t have hard data, but broken window theory doesn’t require “harshly enforcing the law”. It doesn’t require draconian response to petty misdemeanors. What it requires is that the cops actively go after petty “victimless” and “quality of life” crimes like turnstile hopping, graffiti, public intoxication, prostitution and so on. Often cops would let such minor crimes slide and instead focus their enforcement on major felonies like murder and burglary. So what would happen is that criminals would get emboldened. Maybe that’s something I don’t really understand about black communities and their relationship with the police. If my neighborhood was full of gangs, pimps, crackheads and other criminals, I would sure as hell want righteous blue fury of the police occupying my streets. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-evidence-broken-windows-policing-is-effective/707806.md?page=3)