Any evidence that the RMS Titanic staff's and steerage passengers was all-white?

[Askia]

@Fear Itself

Very interesting. I am familiar with Stack O’ Lee (which is apparently synonymous with Stagger Lee from the song), but the others are new to me. You sound knowledgeable on the subject; it would make a good Wikipedia article.

Thank you very much, Fear Itself.

For more information read, chapter 11, Folklore and Street Humor, in Mel Watkins’ On The Real Side: Laughing, Lying and Signifying

[tomndebb]

@Askia

Nothing you have said so far contradicts this possibility, and I never said my theory was fact.

Actually, something he said does cast doubt on your “theory.”

If Jackson returned home in First Class on the Celtic, of the same White Star Line as the Titanic, then you need to demonstrate at least a bit of evidence that the White Star people ever discriminated berthing classes by anything other than cash.

The simple expense of First Class on the Titanic (£870 - £900–above $45,000 in current money) would have eliminated the overwhelming supermajority of non-whites throughout the entire 1912 world–certainly including the debt-ridden Mr. Johnson. First Class on the Celtic would have been significantly cheaper.

[Askia]

1. In 1912, Jack Johnson was anything BUT debt-ridden. A glance at the Wikipedia article suggests he’d earned as much as $225,000 just two years prior, was still in his dollar-earning boxing prime until 1915 and didn’t start having significant financial woes until the 1920s. The dollar amount of a first-class suite on the Titanic back then was around $5,000 – something he could easily afford, since that $225,000 has a buying power today of 2.25 million.

2. I’m sure the White Star Line discriminated on the basis of social acceptance. It’s documented the passengers were ranked – First class passengers were segregated from those on the lower decks, and vice versa. That a black professional athlete could gain passage on THIS ship with THAT passenger list during its maiden voyage strikes me as more than a little ambitious. That a black American blood sport champion notorious for chasing after white women could rub shoulders with the likes of John Jacob Astor IV and the Guggenheims strains credulity. This was at the tail end of the Edwardian era, after all.

Again: while it’s only been heavily rumored he was turned away as a first class passenger, nothing in the facts so far suggests it couldn’t have happened.

[Askia]

Cite that a first class ticket on the Celtic would have been “significantly cheaper.”

[Walloon]

@Askia

I’m sure the White Star Line discriminated on the basis of social acceptance. It’s documented the passengers were ranked – First class passengers were segregated from those on the lower decks, and vice versa.

First class passengers were separated from second class and steerage passengers on all passenger liners. That was the whole point of paying more for first class passage — better accommodations and services. That’s discriminating on the basis of ticket price, not social acceptance.

A report in the New York World of Jack Johnson’s voyage to England in June 1911:

In view of Mr. Johnson’s profession — that of bone crushing, a well-informed man remarked — it was believed that the other passengers might find the social line of demarcation too sharp and clear to permit them to mingle with Mr. Johnson, who, by the way, is colored. The fear was without basis. Frequently, as the large chamois-pusher* strolled about the decks, one could hear well-known society folk exclaim, “Look, there goes Jack Johnson!” And nobody ever queried, “Who is Jack Johnson?” . . . Being a first-cabin passenger, he will eat in the first-class dining room. . . And, surprisingly, when one considers the undercurrent of protest that trailed the announcement that the couple were to sail on the Kronprinz Wilhelm, most of the passengers gazed at him somewhat in awe, and never with the slightest trace of contempt. . . Baron von Ende of San Francisco, who has the stateroom adjoining the fighter’s, stood in his doorway and watched the crowds flocking to Johnson’s cabin. He smiled; so did the baroness.

• Boxing gloves were made of chamois leather.

[alphaboi867]

@Walloon

First class passengers were separated from second class and steerage passengers on all passenger liners. That was the whole point of paying more for first class passage — better accommodations and services. That’s discriminating on the basis of ticket price, not social acceptance…

Not to mention that under American customs law first/second class passengers were exempt from a trip to Ellis Island, steerage wasn’t. If all three classes were allowed to mingle then all the passengers would’be been routed through Ellis.

[Askia]

@Walloon

First class passengers were separated from second class and steerage passengers on all passenger liners. That was the whole point of paying more for first class passage — better accommodations and services. That’s discriminating on the basis of ticket price, not social acceptance.

It’s more likely to be a case a little of both, especially if White Star Lines were compelled to segregate passengers due to alphaboi867’s assertions about US customs and Ellis Island.

I will also mention that they may not have segregated once he was aboard ship, but something may have happened at the ticket office. The body doesn’t always know what the hands are up to.

Actually, I’m a bit more convinced that this whole thing is a legend too – but not for the reasons YOU guys cited (that he had pressing business elsewhere, that he was debt-ridden and couldn’t afford it, or that it was unthinkable he would have been turned away by White Star Lines for being too controversial-- right after the Mann Act was passed – or plain old bigotry.) But I spent yesterday skimming three different Jack Johnson biographies, and they failed to turn up anything significant about the Titanic, and it also turns out Jack Johnson had a boxing exhibition on March 8, 1912 in America, and it seems one of his wives was feeling pretty depressed and suicidal around this time.

Then again, just because it’s not mentioned doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, and it’s tenacity as an urban legend/rumor has been around nearly 90 years. This particular fight was something Jack Johnson could have postponed if he wanted, and his wife’s suicidal depression didn’t stop him from starting another affair with an 18-year old prosititute (for whom he was convicted for violating the Mann Act.) So we’re kind of back to square one: it’s hard to prove convincingly or disprove conclusively either way.

As for White Star Lines treating passengers differently on the basis of something other than money, I haven’t done enough research to prove much hunch that yes, they’ve been known to discriminate, too but I will say the little research I did yesterday suggests that their service and amenities was a cut above what’s typical of the times.