# Any example of a war with no "bad guy" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 9, 2010, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-example-of-a-war-with-no-bad-guy/535514 "2010-04-09T13:00:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-example-of-a-war-with-no-bad-guy/535514/21 "2010-04-10T07:33:02Z")
The Cod War? Or was Britain being a jerk then? ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-example-of-a-war-with-no-bad-guy/535514/22 "2010-04-10T14:29:58Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Tell that to the soldiers at Fort Sumter, who were attacked by rebels from South Carolina, starting the first battle of the Civil War. Well, yes, but what country was Ft. Sumter in at the time? It’s kind of like Castro negotiating for Guantanamo bay, being rebuffed, but actually _doing something_ about it. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-example-of-a-war-with-no-bad-guy/535514/23 "2010-04-10T18:25:17Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > The conflict with Israel and Palestine? Just two groups who sincerely believe they were there first. Yes. I’m going with Israel/Palestine. I see both points of view at once and I just wish there were some way they could both be accommodated that’s fair to everyone equally. That the leaders on each side are constantly working against this keeps driving me crazy. They’re making it harder than it needs to be, and they’ve been locked in this insane death struggle for so long that they’re mirroring one another, and making it one of those endless mirror tunnels. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-example-of-a-war-with-no-bad-guy/535514/24 "2010-04-10T18:30:51Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > … And since there was no provision in the US Constitution disallowing the withdrawal of States, and in fact it was one of the conditions for New York to join that they would be allowed to leave if they so chose at a later date… it can be said that the South did, by nature of the Constitution, withdrawal legally. Well, New York wasn’t part of the Confederacy, so that claim (and it’s the first I have ever heard of it) isn’t really relevant. And there’s also nothing in the Constitution that says a state CAN secede. The **United States** was and is a sovereign state, and sovereignty is meaningless if the state can’t act to protect sovereignty and the rule of law over the integrity of its own territory. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-example-of-a-war-with-no-bad-guy/535514/25 "2010-04-10T19:13:13Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Well, New York wasn’t part of the Confederacy, so that claim (and it’s the first I have ever heard of it) isn’t really relevant. Both Virginia and New York made the right of withdrawal one of the caveats of their joining the Union, if I remember correctly. And, even if it was only New York, why would New York be granted a right, as a State or as a group of people, that Georgia wouldn’t have? > [@RickJay](#): > > And there’s also nothing in the Constitution that says a state CAN secede. The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. > [@RickJay](#): > > The **United States** was and is a sovereign state, and sovereignty is meaningless if the state can’t act to protect sovereignty and the rule of law over the integrity of its own territory. No, the United States was and is a _Union_ of sovereign States. They were a group of individually sovereign, separate and independent but bound by Union, States. ETA: That time has long since passed, and I’m not trying to advocate that we should go back to it (although it’d be nice if the States had a bit more power, both in ability to determine their own laws and enforce them as they saw fit… I’m looking at you, Gun Lobby and NORML). ---
**Author:** ![bearman217](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e4f/32.png) [@bearman217](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bearman217)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-example-of-a-war-with-no-bad-guy/535514/26 "2010-04-10T21:31:03Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > World War 1 would probably be the closest modern example - the Central Powers were probably _more_ at fault, but the truth is that this was a war that pretty much all the combatants wanted to fight, all the combatants acted poorly in, and most of the combatants had fairly similar ideologies. Of course, these wars have been the norm for most of human history - who were the “good guys” in the periodic border skirmishes between the Roman and Persian Empires? I completely agree with this statement on WWI. The thing is that not all of the parties involved necessarily wanted to be on the sides that they ended up on or even ended up facing people that they didn’t want to go against. All of the treaties and alliances were what really caused the war to start, and the assassination of Ferdinand is really what caused the war. Now, there were bad guys on both sides though so I don’t think it would really fit as a war without a bad guy. ---
**Author:** ![Necros](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/necros/32/11086_2.png) [@Necros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necros)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-example-of-a-war-with-no-bad-guy/535514/27 "2010-04-12T16:13:57Z")
> [@bearman217](#): > > All of the treaties and alliances were what really caused the war to start, and the assassination of Ferdinand is really what caused the war. Meh, the assassination of Ferdinand was the precipitating event of the war, but it wasn’t the cause. No one really cared about him at all. He was just an excuse. If you were to look at what really got the ball rolling, it was the Austrian demands to Serbia, plus the snowball effect of mobilization on all sides. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-example-of-a-war-with-no-bad-guy/535514/28 "2010-04-12T18:29:10Z")
> [@](#): > > That, in turn, means that the North attacked a Sovereign state. You’re completely wrong here. Even leaving aside your argument about the legality of secession (which I disagree with as well) the North did not attack any sovereign state. It was the South that attacked the North - a point which confederate apolgists seem to ignore. It was the War of Southern Agression. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-example-of-a-war-with-no-bad-guy/535514/29 "2010-04-12T21:20:13Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You’re completely wrong here. Even leaving aside your argument about the legality of secession (which I disagree with as well) the North did not attack any sovereign state. It was the South that attacked the North - a point which confederate apolgists seem to ignore. It was the War of Southern Agression. I assume you’re referring to the “battle” of fort sumter in which the south was clearly the aggressor? You have no disagreement from me that the South took the frost shots in that battle, however if one does assume that the South is soveriegn it’s within their right to evict, by force if necessary (by last resort). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-example-of-a-war-with-no-bad-guy/535514/30 "2010-04-12T23:04:25Z")
Are you saying Cuba would be within its rights to fire upon the American base at Guatanamo? Plenty of countries have foreign military bases on their soil - that doesn’t give them the right to attack them at will. If they do so, it’s an act of war. And sovereignty is not an excuse for appropriation. Even is South Carolina was an independant nation, Fort Sumter was the property of the United States government. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-example-of-a-war-with-no-bad-guy/535514/31 "2010-04-12T23:15:26Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And sovereignty is not an excuse for appropriation. Even is South Carolina was an independant nation, Fort Sumter was the property of the United States government. Like I mentioned above (or at least alluded to), Ft. Sumter was only attacked because the owners wouldn’t negotiate. It’s not that they negotiated in bad faith; they just flat out wouldn’t negotiate. I also mentioned Cuba. If Cuba had the means, I have no doubt that they _would_ take Guantanamo. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-example-of-a-war-with-no-bad-guy/535514/32 "2010-04-12T23:52:37Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > No, the United States was and is a _Union_ of sovereign States. They were a group of individually sovereign, separate and independent but bound by Union, States. This is an interesting point. I heard, I think from Shelby Foote in Ken Burns’ “The Civil War”, that the phrase was “the United States are…” before the Civil War, and not “the United States is…” until after. Lots of interesting posts on the Civil War, and I’m not sure enough about any of them to say much. For now am enjoying the conversation and trying to learn something. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-example-of-a-war-with-no-bad-guy/535514/33 "2010-04-13T00:30:39Z")
> [@Telcontar](#): > > I don’t want to turn this into a threadshitting, but I, and I suspect many others, can identify a bad guy in that war (see the recent spate over Confederate history month). Shelby Foote quoted somebody or other as saying that the Civil War “had no villains except for slavery…and George McClellan.” ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-example-of-a-war-with-no-bad-guy/535514/34 "2010-04-13T00:45:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Are you saying Cuba would be within its rights to fire upon the American base at Guatanamo? Plenty of countries have foreign military bases on their soil - that doesn’t give them the right to attack them at will. If they do so, it’s an act of war. Yes, Cuba would be within it’s rights to fire on the US Miltary base on Guantanamo, if the USA downright refused to negotiate. And the USA would be within their rights to defend themselves and fire back. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And sovereignty is not an excuse for appropriation. Even is South Carolina was an independant nation, Fort Sumter was the property of the United States government. The argument could be made that the US army had rights to use fort Sumter under the use of defending SC and the union, when SC withdrew from the union, they lost their rights to use the base. But I’d have to see the specifics of the contracts between SC/US/Military to make any concrete statement about the attack on Sumter. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-example-of-a-war-with-no-bad-guy/535514/35 "2010-04-13T04:21:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Like I mentioned above (or at least alluded to), Ft. Sumter was only attacked because the owners wouldn’t negotiate. It’s not that they negotiated in bad faith; they just flat out wouldn’t negotiate. So? They refused to negotiate away their property. That’s not an act of war. If I want to buy my neighbour’s house and they don’t want to sell it, that doesn’t give me the right to set the house on fire because they wouldn’t negotiate with me. > [@](#): > > The argument could be made that the US army had rights to use fort Sumter under the use of defending SC and the union, when SC withdrew from the union, they lost their rights to use the base. The same as above. I can’t tell my neighbours that they only needed a big house because they had kids at home and now they don’t need it anymore because the kids went to college. It’s their property - they don’t have to justify why they own it to me or anyone else. > [@](#): > > But I’d have to see the specifics of the contracts between SC/US/Military to make any concrete statement about the attack on Sumter. Contracts? What on earth are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-example-of-a-war-with-no-bad-guy/535514/36 "2010-04-13T12:22:46Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If I want to buy my neighbour’s house and they don’t want to sell it, that doesn’t give me the right to set the house on fire because they wouldn’t negotiate with me. No, it’s more like, your neighbor’s sofa is in your living room, they’re continuing to use it, and you want them to either sell it to you, abandon it, or get it off of your property. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-example-of-a-war-with-no-bad-guy/535514/37 "2010-04-13T12:38:24Z")
Who was the “bad guy” in the Falkland Islands war? I guess it depends who you ask, but I don’t really consider Argentina or the UK to be a real mustache-twirling villain in the conflict. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-example-of-a-war-with-no-bad-guy/535514/38 "2010-04-13T13:49:37Z")
The [Irish Civil War](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Civil_War). Former comrades in arms during the [War of Independence](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_War_of_Independence) who disagreed over the nature of the treaty with Britain and the Oath of Allegiance. There were ugly moments and horrible things done on both sides but all of them were patriots fighting for what they thought was right. Here’s a video of Tom Barry, a true Irish hero of the War of Independence talking about the reaction of prisoners in Kilmainham Gaol to the death of Michael Collins who was the leader of the forces that put them all in prison. [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VK4kutbouT4) ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-example-of-a-war-with-no-bad-guy/535514/39 "2010-04-14T15:12:05Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Well, New York wasn’t part of the Confederacy, so that claim (and it’s the first I have ever heard of it) isn’t really relevant. And there’s also nothing in the Constitution that says a state CAN secede. > > The **United States** was and is a sovereign state, and sovereignty is meaningless if the state can’t act to protect sovereignty and the rule of law over the integrity of its own territory. Right. The Northern point of view is basically that the South had its way in national politics for a loooong time, and the North _had to consent_. When the North finally mustered the willpower to assert its own way, the South _quit the game_ rather than consent. It’s not really a majority consensus if the South is only playing along as long as it always gets its way – that’s really just Southern rule, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-example-of-a-war-with-no-bad-guy/535514/40 "2010-04-14T15:55:35Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > Yes, Cuba would be within it’s rights to fire on the US Miltary base on Guantanamo, if the USA downright refused to negotiate. What on earth are you talking about? Refusal to negotiate has never been viewed as a legitimate cause for war. Countries refuse to negotiate all the time, on a huge variety of subjects. The US refuses to negotiate with terrorists – that doesn’t make 9/11 justified. > [@](#): > > The argument could be made that the US army had rights to use fort Sumter under the use of defending SC and the union, when SC withdrew from the union, they lost their rights to use the base. But I’d have to see the specifics of the contracts between SC/US/Military to make any concrete statement about the attack on Sumter. That argument is based on fiction. The contract in question is the Constitution. After the Articles of Confederation debacle, the Constitution firmly established that the Federal government had primacy over states in matters listed in Article I, including the power of Congress to establish forts, arsenals, and other military buildings. The idea that the property would belong to the state, and not the federal government, is patently absurd. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-example-of-a-war-with-no-bad-guy/535514.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-example-of-a-war-with-no-bad-guy/535514.md?page=3)