# Any FASCIST sci-fi utopias? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 14, 2002, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961 "2002-05-14T03:27:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/1 "2002-05-14T03:27:36Z")
Hearing some of the comments about the social structure of the “Dinotopia” tv movie (Generally kind of a watered-down new-agey socialism), I was left wondering, are there any “Utopian” civilizations (i.e. No crime, no one’s starving, the usual stuff) in science fiction or fantasy that have more of a facist or a right-wing bent? The only one I could think of is the Earth civilization in “Starship Troopers,” or maybe the Nietzscheans from “Andromeda.” Ranchoth ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/2 "2002-05-14T04:07:44Z")
Numerous of Heinlein’s have fascist overtones. Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged. George Orwell, 1984. AE Van Vogt had a couple, can’t remember the titles. Gordon Dickson’s “Dorsai” series, though really more about the “warrior” class. CJ Cheryh’s “Cyteen” series has some real fascist elements, as seen from the inside. Particularly interesting because she has a related series of novels where Cyteen is the enemy of the protaginists. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/3 "2002-05-14T04:09:06Z")
Well, I’d say that Earth in Robert Heinlein’s “Starship Troopers” qualifies as utopia for disciplinarians and militarists. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/4 "2002-05-14T04:13:21Z")
Also, Niven and Pournelle’s The Mote in God’s Eye. Not fascist per se, but about a young and expanding royalist, militant empire. If you want some strangely twisted facism, try Cordwainer Smith. There is really no one to campare him to, IMO. His societies are weird hodgepodges of things like “The Instrumentality” and intelligent, enslaved animals. ---
**Author:** ![colour\_wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/edb3f5/32.png) [@colour\_wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colour_wolf)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/5 "2002-05-14T04:22:59Z")
David Feintuch’s Seafort Saga set in a future theocracy. The first four were good. I haven’t read the last three. The homeworld’s a utopia from Nicholas Seafort’s POV and he doesn’t see the darkside of Earth until the middle of the series. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/6 "2002-05-14T05:30:20Z")
Science fiction writer David Brin made a good case that the Star Wars universe (both the good side and the bad side) is an idealized fascist state; authoritarian government, a ruling elite chosen because of their genetic background, a tradition of following charismatic leaders on blind faith. S.M. Stirling wrote the Draka series of four novels. The setting is clearly both fascist and SF. Stirling has said he intended the books to depict a dystopia. But if the reader had fascist inclinations they’d easily accept his world as being a utopia instead. ---
**Author:** ![DPWhite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d26b3c/32.png) [@DPWhite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPWhite)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/7 "2002-05-14T06:02:11Z")
Virtually all Utopias wind up being a bit totalitarian, even Walden II. Certainly Plato’s Republic was totalitarian, with a wiff of fascism, which was not really recognized as such yet. For all you fascism buffs, the reverse of the Roosevelt dime has a bundle of sticks on it that represents the Faces tribe, it is called a faces. There are also some of them on the wall of the U.S. Senate. ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/8 "2002-05-14T09:43:59Z")
The ‘utopia’ in Demolition Man, very loosely based on ideas in Huxley’s Brave New World. ---
**Author:** ![Guy\_Propski](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5e9695/32.png) [@Guy\_Propski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guy_Propski)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/9 "2002-05-14T12:42:58Z")
The Iron Dream, by Norman Spinrad ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/10 "2002-05-14T12:46:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guy Propski \* > \*\*The Iron Dream, by Norman Spinrad \*\* Game, Set, and Match to **Guy**. This is the perfect answer to the question. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Neidhart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Neidhart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neidhart)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/11 "2002-05-14T13:25:44Z")
Does _The Turner Diaries_ count? ---
**Author:** ![Arken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@Arken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arken)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/12 "2002-05-14T13:30:58Z")
The evil ultra-Christian Bob Enyart wrote a science fiction story about what would happen if his sort of people took over. It is one of the most disturbing things I’ve ever had the displeasure to read. Feminists and abortion doctors get lined up and shot, people are forced to pray, etc. All of this, in Enyart’s mind, is a great thing and the story is supposed to be positive. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/13 "2002-05-14T14:00:48Z")
Sarban’s **The Sound of His Horn**. It’s 100 years after the Nazis have won WWII, and most of the world seems to be solidly under their boot. We only get to see a little part of it, though…a hunting lodge/getaway vacation place for the party leaders. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/14 "2002-05-14T15:05:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Arken \* > \*\*The evil ultra-Christian Bob Enyart wrote a science fiction story about what would happen if his sort of people took over. > > It is one of the most disturbing things I’ve ever had the displeasure to read. Feminists and abortion doctors get lined up and shot, people are forced to pray, etc. All of this, in Enyart’s mind, is a great thing and the story is supposed to be positive. \*\* Part one is [here](http://www.enyart.com/features/writings/dayone.shtml). I agree with **Arken**. It’s just amazingly evil. Especially since it purports to be a Christian fantasy. Somehow I doubt Jesus would have done things this way. jayjay ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/15 "2002-05-14T15:11:23Z")
**The Handmaid’s Tale** by Margaret Atwood? Hate to nitpick, but wouldn’t a utopia for fascists be a _dystopis_ for the rest of us? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/16 "2002-05-14T15:13:54Z")
Er, make that a _dystopia_. Preview, dumbass, preview! ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/17 "2002-05-14T17:40:11Z")
You know, Fascism _was_ socialist. ---
**Author:** ![Yondan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/278dde/32.png) [@Yondan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yondan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/18 "2002-05-14T18:30:48Z")
Of course, there’s \*\*1984[/]. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/19 "2002-05-14T18:31:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smiling bandit \* > \*\*You know, Fascism _was_ socialist. \*\* Please tell me I’m stupid and was whooshed and that you’re not _really_ trying to pull the old “pin the Nazis on the Left” routine again, please? Pretty please? With lots of sugar on top and dancing girls singing _Deutschland Uber Alles_? jayjay ---
**Author:** ![Yondan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/278dde/32.png) [@Yondan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yondan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/20 "2002-05-14T18:34:13Z")
Ok, it’s **1984** , and I ddin’t see **Yojimboguy’s** listing. Looks around again: how about **Brave New World** , and the **The Giver**? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961.md?page=2)