# Any FASCIST sci-fi utopias? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 14, 2002, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961 "2002-05-14T03:27:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/21 "2002-05-14T19:37:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jayjay \* > \*\* > > Please tell me I’m stupid and was whooshed and that you’re not _really_ trying to pull the old “pin the Nazis on the Left” routine again, please? Pretty please? With lots of sugar on top and dancing girls singing _Deutschland Uber Alles_? > > jayjay \*\* Insight into a Nationalist Socialist German Workers Party memeber’s mind: We _have_ death camps. The Jews _need_ death camps. Hey, guys, I just had a great idea… (I’m very, very sorry; I have a sick sense of humour) ---
**Author:** ![Amok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f17d59/32.png) [@Amok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amok)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/22 "2002-05-14T20:07:17Z")
I really think some of these anwers don’t qualify. _1984_ is not a utopia, it’s a dystopia. _Brave New World_ is a bit more ambivalent, but I still don’t think it’s a utopia. Unless I’m misunderstanding the OP, the question isn’t about what facists would consider a utopia, but rather utopian novels where the “perfect society” has extreme right-wing or fascist qualities. While there may be a few people out there who would look at _1984’s_ world and say “hey, you know, that isn’t such a bad place” it’s pretty clear that Orwell wasn’t describing his ideal society. As such, it’s not an answer to the OP. I agree with **DPWhite** about _The Republic_, though obviously such terms weren’t used at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/23 "2002-05-14T21:10:13Z")
Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle also wrote a book called _Oath of Fealty_, which might qualify. Always thought Pournelle was just a bit of a Fascist. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/24 "2002-05-14T22:37:06Z")
Although I love Star Trek, I always thought the United Federation of Planets had a touch too much of both Fascism AND Socialism for my taste…TRM ---
**Author:** ![DPWhite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d26b3c/32.png) [@DPWhite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPWhite)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/25 "2002-05-14T23:06:32Z")
The Nazis called themselves the National Socialist Workers Party, but they did nothing socialist when they got power. It was Mussolini style facsims with the Fuhrer concept and aggressive expansionism and genocide mixed in. Their hand in glove relationship with big business made them something along the lines of evil uber capitalists ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/26 "2002-05-15T06:37:40Z")
We’re getting way off the OP here, but the Nazis did have some genuine roots in socialism. However it’s like the old joke about the problem the Democrat platform has is that it eventually makes everyone successful enough to be a Republican. When the Nazis were starting out they needed the support of the man on the street and they came out in favor of a number of popular socialist ideas. But once Hitler and the other Nazi leaders got in power they wanted the support of conservative elements like business and military leaders. So the Nazi party essentially repudiated their socialist wing. Of course being Nazis, they didn’t just make a few speechs. On June 30, 1934, known as the Night of the Long Knives, a couple of hundred members of the Nazi party were killed by the SS with Hitler’s approval. ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/27 "2002-05-15T10:13:54Z")
The _Chung Kuo_ series by David Wingrove. Earth in the future is ruled by seven Chinese emperors, one per continent. Every usable bit of land is either under a giant arcology or used for superefficient farming. Everyone is housed and clothed and fed… on the other hand, the class system is quite rigid, everyone not of Chinese or European descent has been exterminated, true history has been supressed in favor of a tale of Chinese armies conquering the Roman Empire, and there are people living under the vast arcologies who have reverted to a primitive state, living off the refuse piles and killing each other. The lower levels inside the arcologies aren’t much better; Triad gangs rule there. I think the author doesn’t mean the reader to think this is a utopia, but a lot of the characters clearly think it is. Except for the revolutionary terrorists, that is. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/28 "2002-05-15T13:33:29Z")
Let’s keep in mind that “fascist” is not a 1:1 antonym for “socialist” nor does it mean just any authoritarian regime that happens to support capitalist economics. That said, the literature does seem to have a paucity of “right wing” utopias where the whole point is **NOT** to expose their dark side, soft underbelly or smell of corruption. In any case: “Right wing” though not necessarily "fascist’ utopianism: _The Republic_ and _Starship Troopers_ have been mentioned. So has _Atlas Shrugged_, wherein the ptotagonists would go on to build a perfect world based on everything that is anti-collectivist – though hardly “fascistic” if one of the basis is supposed to be near absolute personal freedom and responsibility. Any “utopia” that involves predestination _at birth, by descent or genetics_, is not “socialistic” in the sense we know the word (which includes egalitarianism). As opposed to it happening in childhood/adolescence as a result of demonstrated aptitudes (“From each according to his abilities…”) OTOH, many utopias, be they “idealist autocratic”, “idealist libertarian” or “idealist communalist”, that appear in various print and film/TV fiction, whether or not set up as good or bad, or as straw men or plot devices, are not really thoroughly worked out – everyone is just happy and there’s no poverty and we’re all a big happy commune o’ love, or we’re all proud citizens serving our duty and gaining the appropriate privileges and pulling our own weight in total freedom and responsibility, and the Utopia Fairy takes care of the mechanics of the process. Anthony Burgess proposed (unsuccessfully AFAICT) use of the term _cacotopia_ to refer to the scenario where the utopian project, attempted with full good intentions, fails to achieve perfection and creates worse problems. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/29 "2002-05-15T14:38:53Z")
I’m with **Tim R. Mortis**. I’ve never seen any reference to voting or democracy on **Star Trek**. Have I missed it? The whole thing seems like a fascist dream universe. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/30 "2002-05-15T21:28:38Z")
I followed **jayjay** ’s link to the Enyart story. Bulwer-Lytton material through and through. It isn’t even well-written enough to be midldly detested. All it really seems to be is a colossal act of mental masturbation set down in ink. Hell, _I_ could probably write a better fascist utopian sci-fi novel than that clown. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/31 "2002-05-15T22:10:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spoke- \* > \*\*I’m with **Tim R. Mortis**. I’ve never seen any reference to voting or democracy on **Star Trek**. Have I missed it? The whole thing seems like a fascist dream universe. \*\* I seem to recall hearing vague references to “newly elected” council members and such, but I have no idea WHOSE councils. To be fair to Star Trek (which I consider hopelessly juvenile), the Federation (of Planets) is more like the UN than a domestic government. Citizens don’t elect UN representatives either. I can’t recall ANYTHING about what qualifes a planet for Federation merbership. How tolerant are they of “religious planets” of “racially pure planets” or whatever? There was somthing in the original series – some cave guy reciting a pidgin version of the Decalaration of Independence, and Kirk recognizong and embracing it as the underpinning of the Federation as well. That seems promising. ---
**Author:** ![Krisfer\_the\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Krisfer\_the\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krisfer_the_Cat)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/32 "2002-05-15T23:13:24Z")
Well I think “Brave New World” counts coz unless you were the two main male characters everything was goin your way! Especially at the top… drugs, endless sex, and everything done for you… yep sounds like Utopia to me. Sheri S Tepper wrote a wierd little book called “Grass” Really freakin wierd! I don’t remember if it actually qualifies as a utopia but there were definately fascist elements in the use of religion… if that isnt an oxymoron:D BTW… it was The LDS Church taken WAY too extreme… ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/33 "2002-05-16T01:20:16Z")
Peter F. Hamilton’s Night’s Dawn series featured sentient habitats floating in space that had their own security forces and obervationas instruments. Essentially, they saw and controlled everything within themselves. OTOH, life’s pretty good when the government, from the lowest bioartifact to the central ruling consciousness, is uncoruptable. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/34 "2002-05-16T02:53:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Krisfer the Cat \* > \*\*Well I think “Brave New World” counts coz unless you were the two main male characters everything was goin your way! Especially at the top… drugs, endless sex, and everything done for you… yep sounds like Utopia to me. > \*\* Well, Almost any society can be utopia for those on the top rung. It’s how the people in the middle and the bottom feel that tends to carry more weight. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/35 "2002-05-16T02:56:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by HPL \* > \*\*…It’s how the people in the middle and the bottom feel that tends to carry more weight. \*\* Not with the people at the top. 😃 And even most facist states were run to keep the middle class relatively content. ---
**Author:** ![Yondan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/278dde/32.png) [@Yondan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yondan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/36 "2002-05-16T03:20:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Amok \* > \*\*I really think some of these anwers don’t qualify. _1984_ is not a utopia, it’s a dystopia. _Brave New World_ is a bit more ambivalent, but I still don’t think it’s a utopia. Unless I’m misunderstanding the OP, the question isn’t about what facists would consider a utopia, but rather utopian novels where the “perfect society” has extreme right-wing or fascist qualities. While there may be a few people out there who would look at _1984’s_ world and say “hey, you know, that isn’t such a bad place” it’s pretty clear that Orwell wasn’t describing his ideal society. As such, it’s not an answer to the OP. \*\* Hey **Amok** , wouldn’t the bowels of Heck be lukewarm rather than “fiery”? As to the OP, I am sure you are right, on the other hand, of course my suggestions answer the the OP, just not in the way you feel is appropriate. Nor do I think they are the best examples, but not being able to think of any novels which fit the bill perfectly, I thought it permissable to mention a couple of venerable sci fi stories which work to deconstruct the concept of utopia by drawing out such societies as founded on fascist principles. The whole point being, of course, that a utopia is inherently fascist. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Nader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Darth\_Nader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Nader)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/37 "2002-05-16T05:37:20Z")
I’ve seen Niven mentioned a few times already, I’m suprised no one has mentioned his ARM stories (part of the Known Space FH). A special police force created by the planetary government, one of their main jobs was to supress new technology. This was in and around the time one could be sent to the organ banks for too many speeding tickets… Other than that, I’m sure it would be a great place to live. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/38 "2002-05-16T06:38:33Z")
Okay, someone explain to me again why the government form in **Starship Troopers** is fascist. It is a civilian government, with laissez-faire economics, and a general disdain for the military and the government. The main features of that society that got it labelled as Fascist are: 1) You must serve society in some way before getting the vote, 2) The culture is authoritarian in a ‘tough on crime’ way, but not in a ‘we’ll tell you what to do’ way, and 3) The book treats the military with respect, although the society it depicts doesn’t. These are not generally qualities of a fascist state, which is usually marked by heavy government control of business, strong nationalism, and glorification of the military. Laissez-faire government and a population that has disdain for government and the military is not the depiction of fascism. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Nader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Darth\_Nader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Nader)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/39 "2002-05-16T07:05:50Z")
Oh yeah, please, no Heinlein bashing. **Sam Stone** is right on this one. I’ve been going nuts trying to find Spider Robinson’s “Rah, Rah, RAH” online, so as to provide a cite, with little luck. Dammit. Robert A. Heinlein was just as much of a Facist as Henry Rollins is now a Skinhead. ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961/40 "2002-05-16T07:59:08Z")
Never read the book, but the film of Ray Bradbury’s “Fahrenheit 451” had overtones of facism in the was intellectual pursuits were condemed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-fascist-sci-fi-utopias/108961.md?page=3)