# Any good attributes about Swedens immigration? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810 "2015-05-25T17:29:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/1 "2015-05-25T17:29:12Z")
Help me debunk the paranoia about Sweden’s Immigration policy. I’d like an informed view of what’s going on in Sweden, there’s an undercurrent about its immigration policy, which is stated as tantamount to national suicide, and I would like to have some positive attributions associated with the Swedish immigration story, not that Muslims are taking it over and ruining it. Is this recent trend due to the economic circumstances of Europe now, or is it something deeper which has now reached a crescendo. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/2 "2015-05-25T17:43:31Z")
Good collateral thread to the others about homogenous populations. If your perfect homogenous population is replacing itself in every way, it’s hard to argue in favor of open immigration or, really, change in any way. If, like most European nations, your established population is below replacement rate (some of the southern Euro nations are WAY below it), you are going to be replaced by outsider/newcomer/aliens. It’s that simple. Juggling immigration policies only changes the rate and direction. It really is the great paradox of population management that intelligent, wealthy, educated populations tend to restrict their own replacement into extinction. That leaves only “inferior” populations to fill the gap, right? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/3 "2015-05-25T18:29:45Z")
[We had a thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=749468) recently about Swedish censorship laws which dealt with immigration laws. Immigrants are far more likely to commit rape and other crimes than native Swedes. The Swedish government responded like good leftists: they stopped collecting data about the ethnicity of rapists, and they criminally prosecuted people for talking about rates of rape among Muslim immigrant communities. There is grounds for questioning some of the statistics tossed around the immigration issue, but little reason to celebrate changes in Sweden resulting from decades of immigration from primarily the Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/4 "2015-05-25T18:40:20Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > [We had a thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=749468) recently about Swedish censorship laws which dealt with immigration laws. Immigrants are far more likely to commit rape and other crimes than native Swedes. The Swedish government responded like good leftists: they stopped collecting data about the ethnicity of rapists, and they criminally prosecuted people for talking about rates of rape among Muslim immigrant communities. Seems that you did not read the thread, do you have a cite that they did stop collecting that data? What I found was they did record that but it is not as extensive as many on the right over there want, what it was clear to me is that many on the right in Europe should not be trusted with what they claim as they were the same that misled many on the right in the USA regarding those cities in Europe that were “no go” zones because of sharia law. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/5 "2015-05-25T18:55:19Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > [We had a thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=749468) recently about Swedish censorship laws which dealt with immigration laws. Immigrants are far more likely to commit rape and other crimes than native Swedes. The Swedish government responded like good leftists: they stopped collecting data about the ethnicity of rapists, and they criminally prosecuted people for talking about rates of rape among Muslim immigrant communities. > > There is grounds for questioning some of the statistics tossed around the immigration issue, but little reason to celebrate changes in Sweden resulting from decades of immigration from primarily the Middle East. Of course, your post avoids addressing a number of points raised against it in that thread, such as: > [@Hate speech laws cover up the truth](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-laws-cover-up-the-truth/712886/7): > > Of course, the [Swedish commission that examined those numbers](http://www.bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/home/news-from-bra/archive/news/2011-01-18-how-common-is-rape-in-sweden-compared-to-other-european-countries.html) pointed out that Sweden has the most liberal definition of “rape,” (and other personal assault crimes), in the world. Before one joins your linked article in leaping to the conclusion that the addition of Muslims to Sweden has led to a staggering rise in rapes, one should first find out when the Swedes instituted their current definition of rape and then make sure that the rise is not due to new definitions rather than more events. Your link’s chart shows the spike beginning after 2000. Where are the numbers that show that the Middle Eastern or Muslim immigrant population rose at the same rate in the same years as the rise in rapes? > This appears to be an example of the _post hoc ergo propter hoc_ fallacy. > > (And while the article tries to dismiss one aspect of the discussion: > > > [@](#): > > > > Rather than doing something about the problem of violence and rape, Swedish politicians, public authorities and media do their best to explain away the facts. Here are some of their explanations: > > > > Swedes have become more prone to report crime. > > The law has been changed so that more sexual offences are now classed as rape. > > Swedish men cannot handle increased equality between the sexes and react with violence against women (perhaps the most fanciful excuse). > > A long-held feminist myth is that the most dangerous place for a woman is her own home – that most rapes are committed by someone she knows. This claim was refuted by Brå’s report: > > > > “In 58% of cases, the perpetrator was entirely unknown by the victim. In 29% of cases the perpetrator was an acquaintance, and in 13% of cases the perpetrator was a person close to the victim.” > > > > Brå reports that there are no major differences between women of Swedish and foreign background when it comes to the risk of being raped. Significantly, the report does not touch on the background of the rapists. > > They are quite possibly engaged in swapping goalposts. I suspect that, given the close cultural ties, [this article examining Norway’s reporting of rape in the home](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/25/world/europe/in-norway-gender-equality-does-not-extend-to-the-bedroom.html?pagewanted=all) would have a strong bearing on how it is reported in Sweden, as well. > > There very well may be an issue regarding rapes and immigrants. However, the clearly sensationalist report to which you have linked, with its cherry-picked numbers and its clever failure to support several of its assertions if they seem too far out, does not appear to actually support your thesis in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/6 "2015-05-26T05:40:52Z")
I once found year by year statistics on immigration to Sweden and their crime rate and graphed them. After about 1990, the two values are in lock-step. This was a few years ago and would have encompassed all crime, not just rape. The interesting part is that it is directly in lock-step, implying that the immigrants either leave the country within a year, settle down within a year, or are being found and jailed pretty quickly. I couldn’t say which. In the US, first generation immigrants of the poor from other countries tend to be less crime prone. Their children, on the other hand, tend to be more crime prone. Overall, it would be lying to say that there’s no downside to liberal immigration policies. I’m also not sure whether there’s actually an upside to it, either (other than the benefit of having a more varied food court at your local mall). Ultimately, it’s just a form of being charitable. It’s all just luck whether you were born in a safe, stable, and wealthy economy, or under an oppressive, backwards regime. But, there’s no benefit to the world by dragging down the safe and stable countries, for the sake of charitability. Then no one would be born lucky. So it’s a balancing game, at the end of the day. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/7 "2015-05-26T12:19:24Z")
I do not see that Islam is compatible with modern Swedish society. I think that the differences are simply too great, and the consequences for Sweden will be quite serious. The swedes will find out that allowing special rights to immigrants may well stir resentments in the native population. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/8 "2015-05-26T13:01:12Z")
I suspect that immigration debates are more to do with a political trend that is common across Europe relating to dissatisfaction with the political status quo where governments are formed from just a two political parties. There is a rise in smaller, more radical parties that propose to break this stagnation by focussing on popular issues. Immigration is an easy target for such ‘one trick pony’ political parties. The xenophobic and socially conservative prejudices of retired voters is an obvious target. Swedish Democrat Party - the Swedish version of UKIP? ---
**Author:** ![dr\_zippermeyer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c0e974/32.png) [@dr\_zippermeyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dr_zippermeyer)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/9 "2015-05-26T13:03:30Z")
Future generations won’t be merciful when they are examining how rest of the world dealt with Sweden. By allowing this madness to continue, we are betraying the Swedish people every day. Sweden itself is responsible of its actions only in the same sense than a lunatic running through the city naked, wild gaze in his eyes, banging his head with a spatula. It is a great shame for us that we just act like nothing unusual is happening. To understand Sweden, we must notice it is essentially a totalitarian state: it has been so at least last 50 years (see The New Totalitarians by Huntford), probably much longer. Sweden of today lacks free press and secret voting. It couldn’t care less about violent attacks against opposition politicians. People are forced to right mould starting already in kindergarden. They are subjected to rather cruel but simultaneously ingenious brainwashing thorough their school years (one of my best friends went school there). That way they are made to hate everything they are supposed to represent: being white, being male, being heterosexual, Christianity, traditional nationalism, being European. Decades of brainwashing has left Swedes in kind of a vegetative state. They are still successfull in many areas in life but as a citizens they are like helpless children. For more information about what is the reality in Sweden today, please check out [http://swedenreport.org/](http://swedenreport.org/) ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/10 "2015-05-26T13:14:33Z")
> [@dr\_zippermeyer](#): > > Future generations won’t be merciful when they are examining how rest of the world dealt with Sweden. By allowing this madness to continue, we are betraying the Swedish people every day. Sweden itself is responsible of its actions only in the same sense than a lunatic running through the city naked, wild gaze in his eyes, banging his head with a spatula. It is a great shame for us that we just act like nothing unusual is happening. > > To understand Sweden, we must notice it is essentially a totalitarian state: it has been so at least last 50 years (see The New Totalitarians by Huntford), probably much longer. Sweden of today lacks free press and secret voting. It couldn’t care less about violent attacks against opposition politicians. People are forced to right mould starting already in kindergarden. They are subjected to rather cruel but simultaneously ingenious brainwashing thorough their school years (one of my best friends went school there). That way they are made to hate everything they are supposed to represent: being white, being male, being heterosexual, Christianity, traditional nationalism, being European. > > Decades of brainwashing has left Swedes in kind of a vegetative state. They are still successfull in many areas in life but as a citizens they are like helpless children. > > For more information about what is the reality in Sweden today, please check out [http://swedenreport.org/](http://swedenreport.org/) Speaking as a Norwegian who visits Sweden regularly, deals with Swedes every day and follow Swedish news and discussions in the original language, the above post is not reality-based. ---
**Author:** ![dr\_zippermeyer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c0e974/32.png) [@dr\_zippermeyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dr_zippermeyer)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/11 "2015-05-26T13:18:27Z")
Or maybe you don’t see it because Norway has only slightly better footing in the swamp that is drowning Sweden? ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/12 "2015-05-26T13:31:15Z")
> [@dr\_zippermeyer](#): > > Or maybe you don’t see it because Norway has only slightly better footing in the swamp that is drowning Sweden? Your name brings to mind a manufacturer of orthopedic boots, but your posts bring to mind Raggare. ---
**Author:** ![dr\_zippermeyer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c0e974/32.png) [@dr\_zippermeyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dr_zippermeyer)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/13 "2015-05-26T13:31:27Z")
Also, following Swedish news in like trying to figure out what Soviet Union was by reading Pravda. And discussions… have you noticed comment box has always disappeared from major news portals when the theme is about immigration? I’m not kidding you, every single time. ---
**Author:** ![dr\_zippermeyer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c0e974/32.png) [@dr\_zippermeyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dr_zippermeyer)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/14 "2015-05-26T13:33:11Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > Your name brings to mind a manufacturer of orthopedic boots, but your posts bring to mind Raggare. I’m sorry if I offended you. I didn’t mean to. But someone needed to say that about Sweden. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/15 "2015-05-26T13:46:58Z")
I’m not offended in the least. I have a little knowledge about Sweden, and it is undeniable that immigration has caused problems. That’s a matter of government policy and/or border security. “…the swamp that is drowning Sweden…” caught my attention. With hindsight, I presume English isn’t your first language and don’t understand the (admittedly rather subtle) nuance in that statement. ---
**Author:** ![dr\_zippermeyer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c0e974/32.png) [@dr\_zippermeyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dr_zippermeyer)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/16 "2015-05-26T14:07:54Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > Your name brings to mind a manufacturer of orthopedic boots, but your posts bring to mind Raggare. > [@mascaroni](#): > > I’m not offended in the least. I have a little knowledge about Sweden, and it is undeniable that immigration has caused problems. That’s a matter of government policy and/or border security. > > “…the swamp that is drowning Sweden…” caught my attention. With hindsight, I presume English isn’t your first language and don’t understand the (admittedly rather subtle) nuance in that statement. Right, it is not my first language. Your name only brings good associations in my mind: the local supermarket sells premium ice cream with a somewhat similar name. It truly is delicious, with strawberries and even some kind of peanuts on top of it. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/17 "2015-05-26T14:27:23Z")
> [@dr\_zippermeyer](#): > > Right, it is not my first language. Fair enough, mate. The word “swamp”, when associated with immigration brings to mind the racist (but left wing in all other senses) parties of the 70s/80s over here in the UK. > [@](#): > > Your name only brings good associations in my mind: the local supermarket sells premium ice cream with a somewhat similar name. It truly is delicious, with strawberries and even some kind of peanuts on top of it. That’s the first time I’ve ever been likened to an ice cream. I’m not really sure what to say… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![dr\_zippermeyer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c0e974/32.png) [@dr\_zippermeyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dr_zippermeyer)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/18 "2015-05-26T15:06:06Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > Fair enough, mate. The word “swamp”, when associated with immigration brings to mind the racist (but left wing in all other senses) parties of the 70s/80s over here in the UK. > That’s the first time I’ve ever been likened to an ice cream. I’m not really sure what to say… 🙂 OK, I didn’t have an idea swamp has such meaning. You shouldn’t be upset, it is superb product. You can try in case you have LIDL’s in UK. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/19 "2015-05-26T15:11:27Z")
> [@dr\_zippermeyer](#): > > Or maybe you don’t see it because Norway has only slightly better footing in the swamp that is drowning Sweden? Doubt that. The Swedish attitude to immigration and public debate about immigration is frequently discussed in Norway and the Norwegian press. Immigration is a subject where the Nordic nations differ sharply. If you use google translate, here are some samples from Aftenposten, roughly equivalent to the “Times” in the UK: [http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/--Debatt-om-innvandring-er-tabu-i-Sverige-8025558.html](http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/--Debatt-om-innvandring-er-tabu-i-Sverige-8025558.html) [http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Sverige-har-mistet-kontrollen-over-integreringspolitikken-8021812.html](http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Sverige-har-mistet-kontrollen-over-integreringspolitikken-8021812.html) The point is not that Sweden does not have problems with their immigration policy, or their consensus that problems are not to be spoken about but that your comment is so hyperbolic as to not resemble reality in any meaningful way. For example, if I were to adress the ongoing problem with police shootings in the US is a smiliar manner, it comes out looking something like this: \*"Future generations won’t be merciful when they are examining how rest of the world dealt with America. By allowing this madness to continue, we are betraying the American people every day. America itself is responsible of its actions only in the same sense than a lunatic running through the city naked, wild gaze in his eyes, banging his head with a spatula. It is a great shame for us that we just act like nothing unusual is happening. To understand America, we must notice it is essentially a totalitarian state: it has been so at least last 50 years (see The New Totalitarians by Huntford), probably much longer. America of today lacks free press and secret voting. It couldn’t care less about violent attacks against opposition politicians. People are forced to right mould starting already in kindergarden. They are subjected to rather cruel but simultaneously ingenious brainwashing thorough their school years (one of my best friends went school there). That way they are made to hate each other: white against black, christian against muslim, traditional nationalism, being American. Decades of brainwashing has left Americans in kind of a vegetative state. They are still successfull in many areas in life but as a citizens they are like helpless children. For more information about what is the reality in America today, please check out [http://sheeplereport.org/](http://sheeplereport.org/)"\* Did that look reasonable to you? A realistic assessment of the situation? It is somewhat closer, as the situation in the US is far more severe than the conditions in Sweden, but its not what you’d call recognizable as part of our reality. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/20 "2015-05-26T15:22:39Z")
Sweden has a sub-replacement fertility rate (1.91 children per woman). Their choices are to deal with a shrinking and aging population, do something to encourage Swedes to have more children, or get immigrants from _somewhere_. Getting immigrants from other prosperous European countries isn’t going to work, as a lot of them have similar or lower fertility rates. Even non-prosperous eastern European countries tend to have low birth rates, so they’re not going to work long-term as a source of immigrants. Countries with rapidly growing populations of non-Muslim people tend to be far away from Sweden, which makes it less attractive as a destination for immigration. Really coercive methods of trying to raise the birth rate have their own problems- see Romania for some examples. Of course, if you try to go too coercive in a country where people are rich relative to the rest of the world and are free to emigrate, they’re going to emigrate to somewhere more congenial (which will probably be happy to have them), so you really haven’t solved the problem. Less coercive methods of raising the birth rate seem to work best alongside a religious impetus to have more children, and Sweden doesn’t have that, at least not on a scale that makes a demographic difference. I think immigration is almost going to have to be a part of how Sweden deals with a sub-replacement fertility rate, and given the demographics and location, some of those immigrants are going to have to be Muslims. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810.md?page=2)