# Any good attributes about Swedens immigration? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810 "2015-05-25T17:29:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/61 "2015-05-29T01:01:35Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Have any evidence for that? Irish immigrants just happened to gain sufficient population in New York City that when they took over the graft and corruption from the preceding administrations, their patronage program was able to last longer. I cannot think of anything that the Tammany people did that was explicitly Irish or that they brought with them from Ireland, aside from a steady influx of new people to rely on patronage. To clarify this: Tammany started as a nativist organization is the earliest days of the country. Corruption, (particularly related to patronage), began almost immediately. However, it did not transition from nativist to “Irish” until the numbers of Irish fleeing the famine swelled the ranks of the poorest class of people in New York. They did not bring the corruption from Ireland, but simply inherited it from the people already here. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/62 "2015-05-29T03:40:50Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I do not know what the U.S. “lost,” but I suspect that whatever it was has been more than compensated by celebrating Christmas and Hallowe’en, and the availability of pizza, Kung Pao Shrimp, burritos, hot dogs, and bagels. No one could possibly know, because we can’t know what American culture without those immigrants would look like. But it probably wouldn’t look like the nativists’ fantasies imagine it, with all the good aspects of American culture (minus Irish, German, and so on). It isn’t as if one immigrant group is responsible for all the problems in any country. You can make a lot of political hay by saying or implying something like that, especially in difficult economic times, but it almost certainly isn’t true. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/63 "2015-05-29T08:20:40Z")
Reading the Wikipedia article about [immigration to Sweden](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Sweden), I find this statement remarkable: > [@](#): > > Assyrians in Sweden numbered around 120,000 people as of 2009, or 1.3% of the total population of Sweden. Their size doubled in the period of 2002 to 2009.[16] Sweden has a particularly large Assyrians/Syriacs community that grew substantially during the Iraq war. **The Swedish city of Södertälje has alone taken in more Iraqi refugees than the United States and Canada combined.** [17] (bolding mine) ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/64 "2015-05-29T08:24:46Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Have any evidence for that? Irish immigrants just happened to gain sufficient population in New York City that when they took over the graft and corruption from the preceding administrations, their patronage program was able to last longer. I cannot think of anything that the Tammany people did that was explicitly Irish or that they brought with them from Ireland, aside from a steady influx of new people to rely on patronage. Tammany got its notorious reputation from being based in the largest city, not from being any different than the groups controlling other large cities. > > The same hold true for the German American Bund. It really had no significant differences from the Know Nothing Party or the various anti-immigrant organizations that have appeared from time to time throughout American history (or before). While the appeal was to German immigrants rather than Nativist Americans, it introduced nothing new to the country and hardly lasted long enough to introduce any significant changes to American culture. > > There is no question that immigration brings change to both the culture of the immigrants and the culture of the receiving country. However, the statement to which I was replying had implied that there was a loss of culture through immigration rather than a change to culture. I do not know what the U.S. “lost,” but I suspect that whatever it was has been more than compensated by celebrating Christmas and Hallowe’en, and the availability of pizza, Kung Pao Shrimp, burritos, hot dogs, and bagels. Any evidence? Well the numbers involved for one. Higher numbers of Irish immigrants made possible greater corruption. The higher levels of non Irish immigrants also made this corruption worse. Freezing out a small number of Italian, Jewish or Polish immigrants from the police and Fire departments is evidence of minor corruption; freezing them out when they came over in vast swaithes points to greater levels of corrupt policy hindering a greater number of people. Again, nothing I have said contradicts what you yourself have said. I did not say political corruption was particularly Irish. However, the numbers involved, the large size of New York, it’s finances and its Municipality made such corruption worse for a greater number of honest citizens. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/65 "2015-05-29T10:12:01Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Again, nothing I have said contradicts what you yourself have said. I did not say political corruption was particularly Irish. However, the numbers involved, the large size of New York, it’s finances and its Municipality made such corruption worse for a greater number of honest citizens. So, basically, having more immigrants simply means that there were more immigrants to suffer from the pre-existing corruption. It certainly does not mean that the immigrants caused the problems, since the corruption, both in scope and variety, preceded the immigrants. By the same token, having more immigrants meant that there were more consumers and more producers for manufacturing, farming, entertainment, and sales of all sorts. Basically, it just meant more people. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/66 "2015-05-29T11:17:40Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > So, basically, having more immigrants simply means that there were more immigrants to suffer from the pre-existing corruption. \*\* It certainly does not mean that the immigrants caused the problems\*\*, since the corruption, both in scope and variety, preceded the immigrants. > By the same token, having more immigrants meant that there were more consumers and more producers for manufacturing, farming, entertainment, and sales of all sorts. Basically, it just meant more people. Again, will people stop arguing against positions I myself am not taking. I am rather pro immigration. I simply countered an earlier statement that Irish or German immigration did not lead to cultural problems. As with just about every policy in history immigration had it’s positives and negatives. With immagration to the US the positives vastly outweigh the negatives; but there _were_ negatives. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/67 "2015-05-29T12:32:41Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > Maybe some non-Muslim Swedes will celebrate Muslim holidays, just like some Americans celebrate St Patrick’s Day or Cinco de Mayo or Chinese New Year. Which Jewish holidays are celebrated by non-Jewish-Americans? Which Hindu holidays are celebrated by non-Indian-Americans? Basically, people are celebrating Guinness Drinking Day, Corona Drinking Day and… I’ll admit, I had no idea Chinese New Year _was_ a big thing outside Chinese communities…Lion Dance Parade Day. They’re _not_ celebrating a Catholic Saint or a Mexican victory over France (hell, a lot of Americans probably think May 5th is Mexican Independence Day) or a significant day in _their_ secular calendar. So what Muslim holiday _should_ the non-Muslim Swedes celebrate? They’re all _religious_ holidays, in a way not even St Patrick’s Day is anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/68 "2015-05-29T12:58:18Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Which Jewish holidays are celebrated by non-Jewish-Americans? Which Hindu holidays are celebrated by non-Indian-Americans? I think some kids take off school for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, even if they’re not Jewish. In some places, the public schools are closed. In those cases, they may be doing as much to celebrate as they do for Memorial Day or Labor Day. Religious holidays can take on secular trappings. Look at Christmas. There are lots of people who celebrate Christmas who are not particularly religious Christians. Chinese New Year is a bigger thing in California, specifically around San Francisco, than it is in other places. If they want a drinking holiday, non-Jewish Americans (or non-Jews of any other nationality) ought to celebrate Purim. You could spin Passover that way, too (four cups of wine at the seder, woo hoo!), but you really ought to have some matzo with it, and that’s a harder sell. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/69 "2015-05-29T14:20:53Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > I think some kids take off school for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, even if they’re not Jewish. In some places, the public schools are closed. In those cases, they may be doing as much to celebrate as they do for Memorial Day or Labor Day. Neither of which is an ethnic or religious holiday… > [@](#): > > Religious holidays can take on secular trappings. Look at Christmas. There are lots of people who celebrate Christmas who are not particularly religious Christians. Naah, I think it’s better to say there’s another holiday, Gifts Turkey Treeday, that happens to share a date with Christmas. It’s the former the rest of us celebrate, like we celebrate Chocolate Day and Expensive Datenight Day, not Easter and St Valentine’s Day. > [@](#): > > If they want a drinking holiday I think you’ll find the Swedes don’t need an excuse to drink, whereas Muslims… > [@](#): > > , non-Jewish Americans (or non-Jews of any other nationality) ought to celebrate Purim. But they don’t. Because it’s definitely a religious holiday (or do the non-Jews celebrate it in Israel, I don’t know?). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/70 "2015-05-30T23:20:58Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Again, will people stop arguing against positions I myself am not taking. I am rather pro immigration. I simply countered an earlier statement that Irish or German immigration did not lead to cultural problems. As with just about every policy in history immigration had it’s positives and negatives. With immagration to the US the positives vastly outweigh the negatives; but there _were_ negatives. However, the takeaway from your counter argument was that there was something about that group that caused problems when it appears that it was nothing more than the standard immigrant experience. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810/71 "2015-05-31T03:58:47Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Proportion of population aged 25-64 that hold university degrees in 2010: > > United States: 42% > Sweden: 34% > > From page 10 of [this](https://www.uk-ambetet.se/download/18.1c251de913ecebc40e780003405/1403093616367/annual-report-2013-ny.pdf): > > US is 4th most educated country in the world: [http://247wallst.com/special-report/2012/09/21/the-most-educated-countries-in-the-world/3/](http://247wallst.com/special-report/2012/09/21/the-most-educated-countries-in-the-world/3/) Tertiary education is not synonymous with “university degrees”. That figure includes associate-level degrees, which by definition are not university degrees. If you look at baccalaureate degrees, the US is [still ahead](http://www.russellsage.org/research/chartbook/percentage-population-select-countries-bachelors-degrees-or-higher-age) but oddly only among older generations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-attributes-about-swedens-immigration/720810.md?page=3)