Any good attributes about Swedens immigration?

Great Debates
21

Yes, I know Norway is not so deep as Sweden. But none of the neighbours of Sweden has no reason to be happy or satisfied. Paths of Sweden and its neighbours started to go to different ways only recently.

The way you edited my citation is irrelevant because USA is not totalitarian society. People can talk whatever they like, you have to say really heavy stuff to go to jail or get fined because of it. Anyone can start a political movement, newspaper or TV station and compete somewhat fairly with others. People go to schools and universities that are far from uniform. Other people won’t see what you vote in elections. If you feel your home state is going to wrong direction you can easily move to neighbour state. Using of violence in political competition is almost universally condemned.

22

I have lived in the US, and at the very least, Americans enjoy a massively lower level of freedom.

I would not go so far as to call the US anywhere near a totalitarian society, but on the criteria you list, it is further in that direction.

Starting a political movement, media business and compete is incredibly much harder in the US than in Scandinavia. Going to university is financially much harder, restricted to a much lower fraction of the population, and the range of universities actually attended much narrower. People have more freedom to move, to a much larger range of political and cultural environments.

And this…" People can talk whatever they like, you have to say really heavy stuff to go to jail or get fined because of it… Other people won’t see what you vote in elections… Using of violence in political competition is almost universally condemned."

You say that as if you think it is remarkable in some way? Most other nations wouldn’t even think to mention issues like that, because they are in the of-course zone. Are they questionable where you live?

23

That was a pretty British connotation of the word. Non-Brits probably wouldn’t see it that way…

Yes. we’ve got LIDL’s. And I’m not at all upset.

Maybe I should just lick myself…:slight_smile:

24

Swedes have a lot going for them.

A very organised culture, they generally pull together and have a strong social consensus. They are practical people and they have a famously comprehensive and good quality welfare and social security system as well high taxes to pay for it. In some respects it is a bit of a ‘nanny state’ run by social workers, which does not make it the most exciting place in the world, but things get done. Their political system is much more transparent than many other countries. I have heard that everyones tax return is available for inspection. Looking at the immigration numbers, they don’t look dramatic and their approach to refugees is far more enlightened than many other countries. They tend to do a lot of navel gazing and thinking up new socially responsible laws to cover every eventuality, but I guess they have to do something to pass those long winter nights of sub-zero temperatures.

I suspect that some of the negative remarks are probably someone venting feelings of sour grapes over Swedens recent success in the Eurovision Song Contest.

25

If media business is harder in USA it is maybe because newspapers etc have to earn their money. They won’t get paid by government for lying to people.

What does financial access to university have to do with totalitarianism?

I agree Swedes have freedom to move away, that is not typical in totalitarian society. For me it somewhat a mystery why there still are no mass emigration (except maybe to Norway). Probably because they still can escape from worst areas to other places in Sweden.

I feel like you ignore what I am writing. This is not about where I live, this is about Sweden. Yes, those things are issues in Sweden. As a Norwegian you should be aware of this.

26

:slight_smile:

I just ranted how history will condemn our generation for letting Sweden - as a first modern western nation to do so - to commit a suicide. You quite nicely put together how this can be happening. People just repeat those cliches over and over again without a slightest interest to dig any deeper to get to know the truth of this “awesome” country. But I have to say Swedish ruling elite is quite skillful at decepting people so I can’t really blame you. They truly know how to look like a friendly sheep, even if you are a wolf.

27

Proportion of population aged 25-64 that hold university degrees in 2010:

United States: 42%
Sweden: 34%

From page 10 of this:

US is 4th most educated country in the world: The Most Educated Countries in the World – Page 3 – 24/7 Wall St.

28

So what does the ruling elite get out of this “national suicide”? What’s the motive?

29

I assume that the paranoia and the undercurrent you have perceived are of international origin. As a Swede I’m interested in those sources, would you (or any other member) like to share a few of links that would perhaps give me a picture of this?

30

I suppose they could try to attract some of us Swedish Americans. There are over 4 million of us, descended mostly from people who emigrated from Sweden in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

Speaking of Swedish Americans, we were known for not assimilating when we moved here. Give your immigrants 50-100 years and see how they’re assimilating then. Most of us now don’t speak Swedish (I don’t, but I wish I did). Assimilating immigrants tends to be a long game.

31

Uh, what? Sounds like a massive breach of privacy.

32

Well, that certainly seems strange to me. It is quite possible that I am wrong of course, it would hardly be the first time. However…does it seem intuitive to you that nearly every other American attended university and completed a degree? Does that seem like a reasonable representation of the population at large?

And it would be at every age level 64 year olds down to 25.

Now, I don’t know what the college dropout rate has been, historically. But the National Student Clearinghouse reports that after six years, 30 % of the students had left university without any degree. So that would mean that over the last 50 years or so, 59 % of every year went on to university.

Of course,Business Insider says the US is number 19, however well ahead of Canada, that your link listed as number one. Its a bit all over the place.

Now, looking at the people with the numbers, the US census bureau, they report a much lower number, 28 %.

Well, supporting news media is an issue of freedom, really. However, its mainly because its easier to start businesses in Scandinavia in general. As for the notion that media in Scandinavia get paid to lie to the people, I think thats going to need a cite. The region generally scores far higher than the US on press freedom.

Access to university is related to freedom, the opposite of totalitarianism. Restricting access to education and information is a tried and true means of dictatorships to keep in power. While the US is not a dictatorship, access to university is financially restricted, witch limits individual freedom compared to Scandinavia.

Perhaps you should consider that for a while? Why isn’t the people of a prosperous country with one of the worlds lowest crime rates, an expansive welfare state and great opportunities to work your way up, leaving for countries unlike it?

Well, I don’t know everything. I do feel it would be quite exceptional if other people can see whom you vote for in Sweden, and I hadn’t heard of it, or it hadn’t come up in our many public discussions of Swedish political conformity. It would be frigging different from how we fundamentally view democracy.

Do you have a cite for that?

Or freedom of speech, or violence as a means of political expression. That is why I ask if these things are not obvious in your country. Like the riots over black people shot by police in the US may indicate that the use of violence as a means of political expression is not as shocking in all countries.

33

He is probably thinking of Norway. I can give you a link if you want.

34

Being able to vote confidentially (i.e., closed curtain booth), is critical to prevent voter intimidation or coercion.

35

Note that the cite I gave you is a Swedish report (see page 10 for comparison with the US). Also note that it doesn’t talk about university degrees, either for the US or for Sweden. It talks about “tertiary qualifications (degrees)”. I can easily believe that almost every other American has completed at least an associate degree.

What I am surprised at is that with “free” tertiary education in Sweden, their education rates lag United States.

36

He or she isn’t far off-base here, according to this article:

37

I’d say that’s pretty far off base. As mentioned in the article, you vote by putting a slip of paper with your party in an envelope, which is then put in a box at the polling station. Nobody can see what you put in the envelope if you don’t want them to or link the envelope to you once it is in the box.

So you can, as mentioned, pick slips from several different parties and stuff your envelope anonymously in a booth. Or you can do this at home and bring the stuffed envelopes to the polling station. Or you can vote by mail.

38
39

Immigration is an issue in countries across Europe.

I don’t see that the pressures are greater in Sweden than anywhere else.

If the crisis is caused by refugees escaping the conflict in Syria, the easiest way to deal with it is pay Turkey and Jordan to take them. This is what is happening behind the scenes. There is much that can also be done in Libya.

It is sad to say that EU countries are not handling this problem well. Each tries to push back the tide to their neighbours and nationalist parties flourish. Refugees will go to countries that are most sympathetic and have welfare systems that actually work. So they head for Northern Europe.

This is not just a Swedish problem.

40

There’s glory for you!

Ah, yes. The “suicide” claim. Gee, where have I heard that sort of rhetoric?