# Any good Nazis? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 22, 2010, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-nazis/565054 "2010-12-22T07:19:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-nazis/565054/21 "2010-12-24T03:22:53Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Not a high-ranking member of the Nazi Party, but [Hanna Reitsch](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanna_Reitsch) was a fanatical Nazi, and very good at her job as a test pilot. A bit fanatical, period—I always wondered if she was disappointed the whole Reichenberg project never worked out,. Hanna Reitsch was the first person the OP made me think of, but I couldn’t decide if she was close enough to the OP’s criteria of “Nazi leadership.” [Reinhart Heydrich](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Heydrich) seemed capable, given that his job description was basically “be as diabolically evil as possible.” ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-nazis/565054/22 "2010-12-24T03:24:35Z")
Donitz never formally joined the Nazi Party. [List of Nazis - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_Nazi_Party_members) article describes him as “honorary member” from 1944 because he got some decoration normally given to party members. A related question would be, were the top German government officials similar, better or worse than the comparable people in Allied nations. It’s easy to look exceptionally competent if you win for reasons not entirely related to your own brilliance, as witness Ulysses Grant. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-nazis/565054/23 "2010-12-24T04:30:15Z")
[Oskar Schindler](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Schindler) was a member of the Nazi party. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-nazis/565054/24 "2010-12-24T04:37:10Z")
In addition to Speer, Donitz, Reitsch and Heydrich within their respective fields (and acknowledging their varying degrees of evil, with Heydrich clearly pegging the meter among those four), Werner von Braun was a lukewarm Nazi but a very talented rocket scientist. Controversy persists over Werner Heisenberg’s role in the Nazi atomic bomb project, and he was over the years both in and out of the Partei’s favor, but no one denies he was a brilliant scientist. [Copenhagen (play) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_%28play%29) ---
**Author:** ![qazwart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/5fc32e/32.png) [@qazwart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qazwart)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-nazis/565054/25 "2010-12-24T05:03:46Z")
> [@Clark\_Cello](#): > > Also, Hitler himself could arguably be described as a military genius. He was very hands on in military matters, and did not leave things to his generals, who he generally thought were too timid and incompetent. From the late 1930s to about 1942 he was in consistent disagreement with the army general staff, and was also consistently right in his judgments. Of course, things went downhill for him after 1942, which you can ascribe to either him not being a genius after all, or to him being insane and not knowing when to compromise. The problem with Hitler’s military strategy is that he couldn’t stop the military expansion. It wasn’t like in 1941, he could simply say “Well, I’ve successfully conquered half of Europe, I think I’ll declare peace and enjoy my gains.” At that point, the world wouldn’t leave him at peace. It would be doubtful that he could continue occupying France, Poland, and the Scandinavian countries in any sort of peaceful resolution. There would be constant strain on the German economy to keep his gains. In the end, his empire would simply collapse. As we have found out with Iraq and Afghanistan, part of a successful military strategy is simply not biting off more than you can chew. Conquering smaller and weaker countries is the easy part. Not snatching defeat from the jaws of victory is the hard part by the cost of constant occupation is the hard part. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-nazis/565054/26 "2010-12-24T05:11:46Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > [Oskar Schindler](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Schindler) was a member of the Nazi party. So? He ran his business into the ground. Hardly a good Nazi. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-nazis/565054/27 "2010-12-24T06:07:17Z")
So, what was the deal with Rabe, anyway? I mean, the Nazi platform didn’t explicitly say “we shall be evil sons of bitches, muahahahahaha” - but it seems like Party membership and normal human feeling would be somewhat antithetical. At the higher levels, anyway - and Rabe was senior enough that he could stand toe-to-toe with a Japanese general and write to Hitler about it. So at one point, this fellow must have seemed a pretty ardent Nazi. How’d he grow a moral compass? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-nazis/565054/28 "2010-12-24T08:13:39Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > So, what was the deal with Rabe, anyway? What do you mean? He had lived in China for 20 some years, he liked China, he liked the Chinese, he felt moral obligations to his Chinese employees, and he was horrified and disgusted by the slaughter he saw going on. As he put in his diary entry of September 21, 1937, when the Japanese were about to advance on the city, where he’s justifying to himself his decision to return to Nanking, when a lot of Westerners had left > [@](#): > > Many Americans and Germans have departed as well. I’ve been seriously considering the matter from all sides these last few nights. It wasn’t because I love adventure that I returned here from the safety of Peitaiho, but primarily to protect my property and to represent Siemens’s interests. Of course the company can’t-nor does it-expect me to get myself killed here on its behalf. Besides, I haven’t the least desire to put my life at risk for the sake of either the company’s or my own property; but there is a question of morality here, and as a reputable Hamburg businessman, so far I haven’t been able to side-step it. > > Our Chinese servants and employees, about 30 people in all including immediate families, have eyes only for their “master.” If I stay, they will loyally remain at their posts to the end. I saw the same thing happen before in the wars up north. If I run, then the company and my own house will not just be left deserted, but they will probably be plundered as well. Apart from that, and as unpleasant as that would be, I cannot bring myself for now to betray the trust these people have put in me. And it is touching to see how they believe in me, even the most useless people whom I would gladly have sent packing during peacetime. I gave Mr. Han, my assistant, an advance on his salary so that he could send his wife and two children to safty at Taianfu. He quite frankly admits: “Where you stay, I stay too. If you go, I go along!” > . . . > > Under such circumstances, can I, may I, cut and run? I don’t think so. Anyone who has ever sat in a dugout and held a trembling Chinese child in each hand through the long hours of an air raid can understand what I feel. > > Finally-subconsciously-there’s a last, and not the least important, reason that makes my sticking it out here seem simply a matter of course. I am a member of the NSDAP, and temporarily even held the office of local deputy leader. When I pay business calls on the Chinese agencies and ministries who are our customers, I am constantly asked question about Germany, about our party and government, and my answer always is: > > ``` > Yes indeed- > We are soldiers of labor; > We are a government of workers, > We are friends of the working man, > We do not leave workers-the poor- > in the lurch when times are hard! > > ``` > > To be sure, as a National Socialist I was speaking only about German workers, not about the Chinese; but what would the Chinese think? Times are bitterly hard here in the country of my hosts, who have treated me well for three decades now. The rich are fleeing, the poor must remain behind. They don’t know where to go. They don’t have the means to flee. Aren’t they in danger of being slaughtered in great numbers? Shouldn’t one make an attempt to help them? Save a few at least? And even if it’s only our own people, our employees? > > And so we have put our filthy dugout, which the Chinese have evacuated uring my abscence but that was already close to collapse, back in top-notch order. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-nazis/565054/29 "2010-12-24T09:07:33Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I guess Rabe was both good and competent, as he’s credited with saving the lives of 200,000-250,000 Chinese. But how was that a good job Seimens Electronics, Inc., his employer? In my OP, I did not ask about morally good, but “were good, in the sense of being competent at their job?” Rabe doesn’t count, in that he was not a top level Nazi – he wasn’t in any government position, just a commercial business rep. And while his deeds were morally good, they didn’t demonstrate competence at his job. In fact, I believe his company recalled him from his job and replaced him with someone else. Also, I was apparently misleading in my OP by saying Nazi’s. I meant anyone in a top level job in WWII Germany – I don’t care much whether they were an actual Party Member. Sorry if that was confusing. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-nazis/565054/30 "2010-12-24T09:22:53Z")
Top level job: Do weapons researchers count? They made some impressive stuff. Night vision, guided missiles, proto-cruise missiles, jet engines, huge tanks, the 88mm gun, the first assault rifle, the first general purpose machine gun and very dashing uniforms. It may be difficult to pin down people in top level jobs who had broad responsibilities and who can be said to be competent. Did they succeed because they were good, because of the people under them, because of the weakness of their enemies, because of the actions of others on their side? The higher up you go and the more general the goals, the more difficult it is to draw clear lines from cause to effect. ---
**Author:** ![EvilTOJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EvilTOJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilTOJ)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-nazis/565054/31 "2010-12-24T09:53:33Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > So? He ran his business into the ground. Hardly a good Nazi. But he did so intentionally to save his workers from the labor camps. Before that he was a successful businessman. So he was good in both senses of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-nazis/565054/32 "2010-12-24T18:49:20Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Also, I was apparently misleading in my OP by saying Nazi’s. I meant anyone in a top level job in WWII Germany – I don’t care much whether they were an actual Party Member. Sorry if that was confusing. Well, since you rescinded the Party Member requirement, I would submit [Heinz Guderian](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_Guderian) & [Fridolin von Senger und Etterlin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fridolin_von_Senger_und_Etterlin). Especially the latter. When military officers want to study the proper way to conduct a withdrawal under fire, they study von Senger. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-nazis/565054/33 "2010-12-25T03:50:12Z")
Well, there were the [Krupps](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krupp). Arming Germany for decades. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2010, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-nazis/565054/34 "2010-12-25T07:51:01Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Any good Nazis? Dead ones. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-good-nazis/565054.md?page=1)