Any high MPG vehicle with enough performance to be an effective LEO pursuit vehicle?

Factual Questions
21

[QUOTE=Spartydog]
It is logical for cabs and cops to go to hybrid vehicles. There’s the mistaken notion that hybrids are econoboxes. To the contrary, they provide extraordinary performance while getting better gas mileage. The combination of the gas engine and electric motor will give excellent acceleration and speed. Check out the Lexus 400h.
Now you have to figure out who in the state legislature is getting the biggest kickback from the auto manufacturers.
[/QUOTE]

Well, that’s just asinine, because no police department in the USA is going to be able to justify the cost of the Lexus, and yes, the rest of the hybrid fleet ARE slugs on wheels.
It’s the trade-off. More horsepower equals poorer fuel economy and vice versa in almost every instance.
I could see cabs going hybrid, if the were using something like Toyota’s Highlander medium-sized SUV, which gets 28mpg instead of the Vic’s lousy 18-20mpg, but cabs, like cop cars NEED SPACE for people, equipment and luggage.

A Prius cop car is stupid.

22

[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil]
Well, that’s just asinine, because no police department in the USA is going to be able to justify the cost of the Lexus, and yes, the rest of the hybrid fleet ARE slugs on wheels.
It’s the trade-off. More horsepower equals poorer fuel economy and vice versa in almost every instance.
I could see cabs going hybrid, if the were using something like Toyota’s Highlander medium-sized SUV, which gets 28mpg instead of the Vic’s lousy 18-20mpg, but cabs, like cop cars NEED SPACE for people, equipment and luggage.

A Prius cop car is stupid.
[/QUOTE]

Your comment is asinine. You obviously don’t understand the concept of hybrid vehicles. The beauty of the hybrid is that you don’t sacrifice performance while you get better gas mileage. I only used the 400h as an example of what hybrids can do, not a recommendation to use them in the fleet (although I have seen a NYC taxi that was a Lexus 400h). The Highlander would be a better choice. While the Prius may not be suitable for a taxi or cop car it’s performance and economy is superior and that is why it is such a success. It is not a slug. To say that means that you haven’t driven one.

That doesn’t mean that cops and cabs can’t go hybrid. The Ford Escape hybrid can work very well. The problem there is that the Escape uses Toyota hybrid technology that is several generations old. Certainly, if the automakers hadn’t had their heads up their butts for so long they wouldn’t be losing billions of dollars every quarter and there would be no need for this thread.

23

[QUOTE=slaphead]
Meh. Even if you didn’t bother restructuring the fleet, you could just swap out the cruisers for something like a Volvo C70 police edition and get about 38mpg.

Incidentally, the MSN website link refused to load in Opera, but worked in Internet Explorer. Odd, eh?
[/QUOTE]

That is a V70 BTW (A C70 is a small convertible)
FTR California had 10 Volvo S70 and V70 patrol cars for a few years back in the late 1990s. I was involved in (in a very small way) the tests and trials before the CHP bought them.
A few things I would like to point out. A police package Crown Vic is not a pig when it comes to handling. They are a very neutral handling car. Sway bars the size of a baseball bat will do that for you. :wink:
The Volvos spanked the Crown Vic in every category except handling. Being FWD they didn’t handle like a CV. Not worse mind you, but different. Volvo spent tens of thousands of dollars, and hundreds of tires making the Volvo handle like a RWD car. Volvos engineers finally came up with the right combo, and the ten cars were bought. There were rumors of a larger purchase, that that never happened.
From what I heard back the officers that drove the Volvos loved them and much preferred them over a CV.
Side note: When these cars were being evaluated, Volvo was already owned by Ford. The Ford special vehicle guys were pissed when Volvo showed up with a police package Volvo. Our rep told them to can it, or we would go get a new one off the showroom floor without any special equipment, and we could still spank their ass.
:smiley:

24

[QUOTE=Merkwurdigliebe]
Seriously, there’s absolutely no reason for cops to be driving around in Crown Vics… Cops tend to be more of the macho type, and you can bet your ass they’d rather not be caught dead driving around in a little EuroBox, which is why they’ve been driving Crown Vics all this time.
[/QUOTE]

Crown Victorias are one of the few remaining (if not the last) body-on-frame cars made in the United States. If something is damaged it is easier by orders of magnitude to replace body panels than it is to totally reconstruct load-bearing members of a car’s unibody in the event of an impact, bearing in mind that the police often intentionally cause the impacts.

It has nothing to do with “macho”, I assure you. With few exceptions the Crown Vic is popular with with two groups: the cops and the AARP crowd. There is nothing worse than getting stuck behind Miss Daisy because you think that she’s a cop and you’re afraid to pass. Here are my personal ruminations on the Crown Vic. They haven’t changed.

25

[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil]
Well, that’s just asinine, because no police department in the USA is going to be able to justify the cost of the Lexus,
[/QUOTE]

Why not? I suspect there would be about a $2,000/year difference in fuel costs between the 400h and a $10,000/year difference in purchase costs.

Alternately, why not a “police version” Prius with better performance?

Or the former Accord Hybrid? Decent size, mileage, and excellent performance.

26

[QUOTE=Spartydog]
Your comment is asinine. You obviously don’t understand the concept of hybrid vehicles. The beauty of the hybrid is that you don’t sacrifice performance while you get better gas mileage. I only used the 400h as an example of what hybrids can do, not a recommendation to use them in the fleet (although I have seen a NYC taxi that was a Lexus 400h). The Highlander would be a better choice. While the Prius may not be suitable for a taxi or cop car it’s performance and economy is superior and that is why it is such a success. It is not a slug. To say that means that you haven’t driven one.

That doesn’t mean that cops and cabs can’t go hybrid. The Ford Escape hybrid can work very well. The problem there is that the Escape uses Toyota hybrid technology that is several generations old. Certainly, if the automakers hadn’t had their heads up their butts for so long they wouldn’t be losing billions of dollars every quarter and there would be no need for this thread.
[/QUOTE]

That’s just not true in any hybrid (outside of the Lexus’) configuration right now. They use smaller displacement gasoline engines than the same car of the same make, and complement it with an electric motor that can power the car under low throttle situations alone, for a period of time. The gasoline engine kicks in under duress or heavy throttle demand.

Fuel consumption aside, in the case of this particluar segment of the argument at hand (regular combustion engine versus hybrid in sheer horsepower), there is no replacement for cubic inches of motor. Or turboed/supercharged smaller engines, none of which are hybridized as of yet.

27

[QUOTE=threemae]
Why not? I suspect there would be about a $2,000/year difference in fuel costs between the 400h and a $10,000/year difference in purchase costs.

Alternately, why not a “police version” Prius with better performance?

Or the former Accord Hybrid? Decent size, mileage, and excellent performance.
[/QUOTE]

As someone else pointed out above, the fleet of Vics is so vast that part replacement is really cheap for departments. Not to mention that maintenance for these cars is really easy, as well as the reliability factor. Crown Vics are really reliable, predictable cars. And they’re tough.

Not saying that there isn’t a better alternative, but Crown Vics are a pretty well-established platform for police vehicles, and while they may suffer deficiencies to to other cars in MPG, performance and handling, overall they rate well because they are tanks that withstand a lot of abuse, and are the industry standard because it’s a relatively unchanged car over the years that maintenance people know how to tweak, fix and keep it running.

28

Although not a car with incredible mileage, the Chevy Impala Police Package seems to be working pretty well around here. I ran across this interesting Wiki page on police vehicles when trying to remember the name of the Impala.

29

First of all, the only reason Euro-cops drive gay little econoboxes is because, wait for it…

That’s what nearly EVERYONE THERE drives!!

A police car certainly needs to be of the same or better average class of vehicle in their particular region. Plus a Crown Vic would literally not fit on a lot of Euro/UK streets.

Second, Police cars (like Taxis) do nothing but stop and go city driving. Gas mileage is not going to be very good no matter what they drive. Combined with the fact that Police, again like Taxis, are fleet vehicles. IOW they are used 24/7 in pretty much constantly unideal and harsh situations. Durability is MUCH more important than economy. If cops used economy cars any savings on gas (even at $4.50/gallon) would not come close to the loss of having to replace the entire fleet two or three times as often.

Bully for you. I drive a 2004 Pathfinder that gets a whopping 15 MPG city and yes its a bit of a pain gas getting more expensive. But like most SUV owners I’m not a traveling salesman, so it isn’t like I need a 2nd job to pay for it.

And if I ever have an accident with a Euroweinie guess who’ll have the last laugh then? :smiley:

30

[QUOTE=Tom Tildrum]
Presumably the constables and gendarmerie in Europe aren’t driving around in rear-wheel drive Crown Vics. Maybe someone with knowledge of across-the-pond law enforcement could fill us in?
[/QUOTE]

Police cars around the world

This website does a pretty good job showing that cops drive all around the world.

The Dutch Politie does their rounds in diesel VW Golfs. those would make pretty decent patrol vehicles in crowded urban areas, and like another poster said restrict high-speed pursuits to a special fleet of specialized vehicles

31

[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil]
Police agencies get a pretty good deal on those cars due to volume purchases, IIRC. Police Interceptor Crown Vics aren’t exactly slow, but they aren’t going to keep up with a sports car all that well, either, BUT…you can’t outrun the radio.

I think that the space/storage consideration for police is a real issue here. Cops carry all kinds of stuff in their trunks, so they need a good sized trunk, and cops also make a lot of arrests with their everyday cruisers, so they need a back seat large enough for that, as well as four doors.

They do handle crappy, but their solid rear axle makes for a very predictable reaction from the car under duress, so they are easy to train in for pursuits.

I’m sure they can get a better car than what they have though, just for MPG’s sake. My 1996 Crown Vic I used to own got about 18MPG.

EDIT: Also, wouldn’t having to call for a prisoner transport vehicle negate the savings in gas for having to use two vehicles to report to the scene of a crime, particularly if it’s just to arrest a single individual which the Crown Vic is equipped to do already?
[/QUOTE]

Also, don’t forget that certain jurisdictions in the U.S. have to deal with large, rural swaths of land, which most law enforcement agencies in Europe don’t have to deal with (so far the discussion has only focused on urban areas).

Take the Iowa state patrol for example. Each of their police cruisers has to be effectively self sufficient when out patrolling the interstates and state roads, dealing in everything from speeding tickets to accident response to domestic disturbances, breakdowns, etc. Those cruisers are packed with gear. And when they receive an emergency call for a location about 30-50 miles away, they will gun it and I’ve seen them doing upwards of 90 mph on I-80 to respond to a call. A compact diesel powered vehicle just wouldn’t be able to meet their needs, unless they completely restructured the way they handle their operations (cooperative teams of different cars for each role, etc).

32

[QUOTE=Hail Ants]
Second, Police cars (like Taxis) do nothing but stop and go city driving. Gas mileage is not going to be very good no matter what they drive. Combined with the fact that Police, again like Taxis, are fleet vehicles. IOW they are used 24/7 in pretty much constantly unideal and harsh situations.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, stop and go city driving is the ideal role for a hybrid. As has been pointed out by many individuals many times, hybrid city mileage is usally better than highway mileage. Sinc police cars are in constant use, I think the overall lifecycle costs of ownership becomes much more important compared to just looking at the sticker price of the initial purchase than in other vehicles.

Toyota Priueses are being introduced to taxi-service in New York (some are already at plus 150K miles) and the taxi drivers that have them have been very pleased. They have excellent reliability, the battery packs have not required replacement, and they’ve proven much more profitable to operate in a high fuel-cost environment than Crown Victorias.

I heard a story recently on NPR about police departments that have started doing neighborhood patrols on golf-carts. If you can patrol in a golf-cart, you can probably do alright in a Prius as well. Also, most departments use bicycles in roles where they are interacting with the public on foot. It’s not true that every police vehicle needs to be instantly capable of every single role, in fact no vehicle can optimally fit every role. I feel this thread has been generously laced with a fair bit of machismo and cop-folklore about needing such tough, multi-purpose vehicles when in reality police departments need to operate in a manner mindful of the cost of uel just like every other business or agency on earth.

33

I work for County Gov in the Colorado Mountains. So does my Wife.

What I am going to share is second hand information.

My Wife works for the Assessor. She’s an appraiser. Appraisers have to visit every house in the county to value them. When the Jeep stopped making the Cherokee (our standard fleet vehicle) the County Gov started buying Ford Escapes. Hybrids.

The appraisers hate the Ford. Claiming it did not have enough power. It was related to me that the Ford did not even have enough power to climb over a standard curb. This really, really surprised me. And I take it with a grain of salt.

Now, the appraisers do get out on steep rough roads a bit, but rarely anything that could be called a jeep or 4x4 trail. Roads to houses in this county must meet certain standards for emergency service access. We’re talking fire trucks and ambulances.

They don’t like the Ford because it doesn’t have enough power.

:shrug: Just a second hand observation.

34

[QUOTE=Spartydog]
The problem there is that the Escape uses Toyota hybrid technology that is several generations old. Certainly, if the automakers hadn’t had their heads up their butts for so long they wouldn’t be losing billions of dollars every quarter and there would be no need for this thread.
[/QUOTE]

That’s a misunderstanding. Ford developed and uses their own hybrid technology. There were some big news announcements years ago that Ford was licensing Toyota’s tech, which is where this rumor always comes from. The actual fact is there was some simultaneous inventing occurring, and the way to avoid lawsuits is to license. In fact, there was cross-licensing.

35

[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil]
That’s just not true in any hybrid (outside of the Lexus’) configuration right now. They use smaller displacement gasoline engines than the same car of the same make, and complement it with an electric motor that can power the car under low throttle situations alone, for a period of time. The gasoline engine kicks in under duress or heavy throttle demand.
[/QUOTE]

Together the two engines put out a decent amount of horsepower–I believe our Prius can put out 190hp between the two. But the gas engine is relunctant to kick in if it isn’t already going, so it does take some time to get up to speed.

36

[QUOTE=Hail Ants]
First of all, the only reason Euro-cops drive gay little econoboxes is because, wait for it…

That’s what nearly EVERYONE THERE drives!!

A police car certainly needs to be of the same or better average class of vehicle in their particular region. Plus a Crown Vic would literally not fit on a lot of Euro/UK streets.

Second, Police cars (like Taxis) do nothing but stop and go city driving. Gas mileage is not going to be very good no matter what they drive. Combined with the fact that Police, again like Taxis, are fleet vehicles. IOW they are used 24/7 in pretty much constantly unideal and harsh situations. Durability is MUCH more important than economy. If cops used economy cars any savings on gas (even at $4.50/gallon) would not come close to the loss of having to replace the entire fleet two or three times as often.

Bully for you. I drive a 2004 Pathfinder that gets a whopping 15 MPG city and yes its a bit of a pain gas getting more expensive. But like most SUV owners I’m not a traveling salesman, so it isn’t like I need a 2nd job to pay for it.

And if I ever have an accident with a Euroweinie guess who’ll have the last laugh then? :smiley:
[/QUOTE]

Your macho assumption that your 2004 pathfinder is safer is incorrect. I realize you’re bitter about the fact that gas is high, I’m sorry that I had foresight, and don’t have to retroatively justify my decisions based on non-existent safety assumptions.

http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/safety.aspx?year=2004&make=Nissan&model=Pathfinder
http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/safety.aspx?year=2001&make=Volkswagen&model=Jetta

2004 Pathfinder:
Structure / Safety Cage rating: POOR!

SUVs aren’t safer, guy…

37

[QUOTE=Merkwurdigliebe]
Your macho assumption that your 2004 pathfinder is safer is incorrect. I realize you’re bitter about the fact that gas is high, I’m sorry that I had foresight, and don’t have to retroatively justify my decisions based on non-existent safety assumptions.

[/QUOTE]

The macho, oil-sniffers always conveniently forget that railroads have been hybrid for years. The diesel engines supply the electricity and the electric motors supply the torque and the power, enough to start a train of 120 railroad cars loaded with coal and get it up to speed. Gee, those electric motors must be for pansies.

38

[QUOTE=Merkwurdigliebe]
Your macho assumption that your 2004 pathfinder is safer is incorrect. I realize you’re bitter about the fact that gas is high, I’m sorry that I had foresight, and don’t have to retroatively justify my decisions based on non-existent safety assumptions.

http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/safety.aspx?year=2004&make=Nissan&model=Pathfinder
http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/safety.aspx?year=2001&make=Volkswagen&model=Jetta

2004 Pathfinder:
Structure / Safety Cage rating: POOR!

SUVs aren’t safer, guy…
[/QUOTE]

None of the safety ratings out there actually do a good job of comparing vehicles in grossly different weight classes.
Just because a Chevy Caprice gets 3 stars and a Jetta gets 5 stars doesn’t mean that your outcome will be superior in a crash in the Jetta.

39

[QUOTE=Jayn_Newell]
Together the two engines put out a decent amount of horsepower–I believe our Prius can put out 190hp between the two. But the gas engine is relunctant to kick in if it isn’t already going, so it does take some time to get up to speed.
[/QUOTE]

Not quite. 143 bhp between the two, unless you have an older one, in which case it’s a bit less.

40

[QUOTE=Mr. Slant]
None of the safety ratings out there actually do a good job of comparing vehicles in grossly different weight classes.
Just because a Chevy Caprice gets 3 stars and a Jetta gets 5 stars doesn’t mean that your outcome will be superior in a crash in the Jetta.
[/QUOTE]

Got a cite for that?