# Any hope for Iraq? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2003, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-hope-for-iraq/196309 "2003-08-19T22:44:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-hope-for-iraq/196309/41 "2003-08-27T04:26:25Z")
Medicins Sans Frontieres (MSF) Executive Director Nicolas De Torrente had this to say: > [@](#): > > The developing insecurity and the increased number of attacks and threats against aid workers is a clear indication that the division between military and humanitarian action is not respected by the armed groups who are active in the country [Vulnerable Relief Agencies Ponder Presence](http://www.ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=19837) ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-hope-for-iraq/196309/42 "2003-08-27T08:05:14Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by Sam Stone_ > What you can do is cut off the enemy’s head. They need to keep capturing leaders (Vice President of Saddam’s regime captured today), and they need to capture or kill Saddam. That might break the back of the Baathist resistance, which will still leave al-Qaida and associated terrorist nutbars. But as long as the U.S. keeps killing them, eventually they’ll run out. “[our Goal is to] attrit Viet Cong and North Vietnamese forces at a rate as high as thier capability to put men into the field.” - General William C. Westmoreland, commander of U.S. forces in Vietnam. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-hope-for-iraq/196309/43 "2003-08-27T14:14:27Z")
Magiver, you need to read the news. There have been plenty of anti-American demonstrations which have ended in violence and sometimes with the Americans shooting at the demonstrators. After the whole mess is over there is always the blaming and the fingerpointing as to who shot first but to say it isn’t happeneing is just denying what the news is reporting. Plenty of clerics are also speaking out against the occupation. Just read the news. You are contradicting yourself when you say they are their own worst enemies by not cooperating with the Americans and then you say they are all so happy that the Americans are there. So what is it? If they are so happy why aren’t they cooperating? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-hope-for-iraq/196309/44 "2003-08-27T21:51:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*Magiver, you need to read the news. There have been plenty of anti-American demonstrations which have ended in violence and sometimes with the Americans shooting at the demonstrators. After the whole mess is over there is always the blaming and the fingerpointing as to who shot first but to say it isn’t happeneing is just denying what the news is reporting. Plenty of clerics are also speaking out against the occupation. Just read the news. > > You are contradicting yourself when you say they are their own worst enemies by not cooperating with the Americans and then you say they are all so happy that the Americans are there. So what is it? If they are so happy why aren’t they cooperating? \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-hope-for-iraq/196309/45 "2003-08-27T22:19:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*Magiver, you need to read the news. There have been plenty of anti-American demonstrations which have ended in violence and sometimes with the Americans shooting at the demonstrators. After the whole mess is over there is always the blaming and the fingerpointing as to who shot first but to say it isn’t happeneing is just denying what the news is reporting. Plenty of clerics are also speaking out against the occupation. Just read the news. > > You are contradicting yourself when you say they are their own worst enemies by not cooperating with the Americans and then you say they are all so happy that the Americans are there. So what is it? If they are so happy why aren’t they cooperating? \*\* Again with the insults. YOU need to take more time reading my posts. Nowhere do I suggest or refer to cooperation with Americans as a cure. I made a very simple observsation that Iraqi’s would be best served if they helped themselves. There was no hidden meaning in what I said. I also hold no illusions that there is a cleric love fest. I’m sure, in between diatribes of Jew bashing the United States is made to feel quite unwelcome by both Sunni and Shite alike. However, the Majority of Shite clerics have stopped short of encouraging violence. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-hope-for-iraq/196309/46 "2003-08-28T11:51:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Magiver \* > \*\*Again with the insults. \*\* Huh? Exactly which part of **sailor** ’s post did you find insulting? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-hope-for-iraq/196309/47 "2003-08-28T18:10:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > Huh? Exactly which part of **sailor** ’s post did you find insulting? The truth? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-hope-for-iraq/196309/48 "2003-08-29T01:27:30Z")
> [@](#): > > “[our Goal is to] attrit Viet Cong and North Vietnamese forces at a rate as high as thier capability to put men into the field.” > > - General William C. Westmoreland, commander of U.S. forces in Vietnam. Yes, and there were several hundred thousand NVA, heavily supported by China and Russia, with active supply lines that were outside military reach, in a large country with mountainous terrain and jungles to hide under, in an era where there was almost none of the technology the U.S. has today, in a political environment in which the U.S. military was constrained from using all of its capabilities. Other than that, your analogy is perfect. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-hope-for-iraq/196309/49 "2003-08-29T02:06:20Z")
Forget the mountanous terrain and jungles. Guerrillas can work just as well, if not better, in an urban setting. They emerge from the people to hit and run and they return to the people to hide and get support. Technology isn’t going to do squat against the fact that every Iraqi becomes a suspect and is treated accordingly. The only solution is to kill them all and I believe the US military is constrained not to do this. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-hope-for-iraq/196309/50 "2003-08-29T02:43:01Z")
There’s a big, big difference. But if you want to strain to try and turn this into a quagmire, go ahead. Obviously, you’re predisposed to wanting to paint the Iraq condition in the worst possible light. The big problems in Iraq have to do with the slow pace of reconstruction and the potential alienation of the population. If the U.S. increases the resources required and gets things moving, the people will settle down. And signs of concrete progress will not only whittle away support for the resistance, but tangible signs of improvement will make Iraqis less afraid that Saddam is coming back, and they will start providing more intelligence. Thomas Friedman just came back from Iraq. He is a renowned expert on the region. While critical of the way the Bush administration has been handling things, he says that the situation there is not nearly as bad as the media is portraying. There are lots of bad things going on, which we’re hearing about, and lots of good things going on, which we’re not hearing about. That skews our perception. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-hope-for-iraq/196309/51 "2003-08-29T03:42:58Z")
> [@](#): > > …The big problems in Iraq have to do with the slow pace of reconstruction and the potential alienation of the population. Quite right. That object in the living room, farting thunderously, is without doubt an elephant. > [@](#): > > …If the U.S. increases the resources required and gets things moving, the people will settle down. It starts getting sticky right about here. Uncle Sam has already attached Count Iraqula to his jugular vien. He’s begining to show signs of diziness and fatigue, and pale, very pale. Just how much money, do you imagine, will a full employment project in Iraq cost? Has there ever been a more colossal irony: we don’t have full employment here, but we will fight for the privilege of _imposing_ it on someone else. Cetifiable. > [@](#): > > …tangible signs of improvement will make Iraqis less afraid that Saddam is coming back, and they will start providing more intelligence. We have already discussed this. You echo the Bushivik song that the resistance in Iraq is all “dead-enders” and Baathist die-hards, who terrorize the people with threats of Saddam’s return. This avoids the dreadful possibility that it is a nativist, anti-American, and, worst of all, _popular_ resistance movement. Now, I don’t know how smart the average Iraqi is. But I find it hard to imagine anyone could watch a couple of armored divisions drive around town for a month or so, and still be worried about the guy who’s ass they just kicked. Not saying I’m sure you’re wrong, but the evidence is the same since the last time we went over this: zero, zip, nada damn thing. And if it _is_, God help us, a popular nativist anti-American resistance, then no such information will be forthcoming. Do you see any reason to believe that such information has been flowing over us? Forget about this diplomatic and coy posturing, like we might consider permitting the UN to save our bacon if they ask nice. We need lawyers, guns and money. Tons of it, avalanches. We need everybody else’s people in and ours out. And if GeeDubya has to kiss Koffi Annan’s butt in Macy’s window at high noon, I say, “Pucker up, George, you’re a Leader of Men, and this is what they do.” ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-hope-for-iraq/196309/52 "2003-08-29T03:56:59Z")
Just a thought that doesn’t advance the debate one bit … but what really gets me is, much as despise GW and all his works Congress bought into this mess. Now their hands are more or less tied. And our troops are in a foregin land and in danger every day and the words “exit strategy” which I vaguely recall were pulled on Clinton in the Balkans almost every day seem to have been forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-hope-for-iraq/196309/53 "2003-08-29T04:02:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\*The big problems in Iraq have to do with the slow pace of reconstruction and the potential alienation of the population. If the U.S. increases the resources required and gets things moving, the people will settle down. > \*\* **Sam** , isn’t the lack of resources just the problem. It seems to me that substantial progress is just not going to happen until some sore of civil order is restored. Clearly the restoration of order (read peace and quiet) is going to require the commitment of more troops on the ground than we have in place now. The figure I keep hearing is 130,000 troops now in country, although I do not know what that includes and a fair number of those are logistical and service support people who cannot be put on street corners with a rifle. Mr Rumsfelt has made it plain that he is not ready to send any additional numbers in except as replacements. That policy results in no net gain in “boots on the street.” Any local commander has got to know that, one, no request for additional forces is going to be approved, and ,two, any request for additional forces will not enhance the requester’s career. It seems to me that until we have a dramatic predominance of force the guerillas, even if they are a minuscule portion of the population, are going to be able to disrupt efforts to impose civil order and delay the restoration of essential services for an unpleasantly long time. The effort to have UN members supplement the US and UK force seems to have fallen flat. Any significant number of additional troops are going to have to come from the ten or so US army divisions which are not already committed to Iraq or Korea or Lord knows where else. If we are not willing or able to insert enough power to effectively quash the resistance this is going to be a long, painful and expensive proposition. I do not see the instant results that some expected coming very soon. Incidently, at this point the argument about the wisdom of invading Iraq is largely an academic argument. The ugly fact is that the Us and UK are now an occupying power with a tenuous hold on the actual control of the place. The pressing question is now that we have Iraq what do we want to do with it and how do we do that. We are not going to do it by minimalist means. Sooner or later the electorate will decide that the game is not worth the candle. We have got to get effective control of the place before that happens. It seems to me that the best and in the long run most economical way to establish control is to go in with overwhelming force. Our government seem to have made a policy decision that the overwhelming force option is the last thing it wants to do. What concerns me is that the longer it takes to get control the greater the risk that things will get out of hand someplace else precisely because the nation is distracted by the struggle to occupy Iraq. I don’t expect to have to fight terrorists in the streets of St. Louis, but I do expect those who wish us ill to take advantage. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-hope-for-iraq/196309/54 "2003-08-29T05:01:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > Other than that, your analogy is perfect. And about as apt as your “sunny day” summary of the current situation. Westmoreland was quite the optimist, I hear. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-hope-for-iraq/196309/55 "2003-08-29T05:29:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\* > Thomas Friedman just came back from Iraq. He is a renowned expert on the region. While critical of the way the Bush administration has been handling things, he says that the situation there is not nearly as bad as the media is portraying. There are lots of bad things going on, which we’re hearing about, and lots of good things going on, which we’re not hearing about. That skews our perception. \*\* Do you happen to have a cite in which Thomas Friedman, who is in position to do it, tells us what these are “good things” that are happening and how often? Just saying “good things are happening” doesn’t quite cut it, does it? ---
**Author:** ![Incubus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-hope-for-iraq/196309/56 "2003-08-29T13:58:20Z")
Just a slight hijack here- It seems like regardless of being the only worlds superpower, a leading military and economic power in the world doesn’t mean squat if everyone hates you. Any good efforts will be undermined and thrown in with all the mistakes and violations the nation has made. This is the situation I think the United States is in right now. We’ve gotten ourselves in such a mess that I feel no matter what we do, opponent’s of US policy will simply find a way to slant it in a way that incriminates the US more. I don’t think we are going to see any kind of reconciliation anytime soon. Rather, I see a growing rift between the United States and the rest of the United Nations, which makes me concerned. I know it may sound like Chicken Little, but doesn’t the scale of all this frighten some people? Isn’t it things like this that cause World Wars to be started? How long before the nations of the world get so tired of the United States enforcing its own military and political policies on other nations that they see how the US likes it when the shoe is on the other foot? ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-hope-for-iraq/196309/57 "2003-08-29T15:22:55Z")
I’m not worried about that. It would be killing the golden goose. The cost of a war and occupation of the US would so cripple the economy of any nation(s) that tried it and ruin the wealth of the whole world. To get back to the OP, [oh, shit.](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/08/29/sprj.irq.najaf/index.html) Ayatollah al-Hakim has been killed outside the Ali mosque in Najaf, along with 75 other people luckless enough to be in the vicinity of some car bombs. He was apparently one of the leading Shia clerics in the world and this isn’t going to help their martyr/victimization complexes one bit. As an aside, isn’t it funny that the Muslims were so outraged when one of our helicopters flew too close to a mosque and knocked down a flag, and the Ali mosque was unguarded by the Coalition because they didn’t want our infidel boys near it, and yet some of them think it’s dandy to shoot people and blow them up inside or next to it? What hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-hope-for-iraq/196309/58 "2003-08-29T17:30:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mehitabel \* > As an aside, isn’t it funny that the Muslims were so outraged when one of our helicopters flew too close to a mosque and knocked down a flag, and the Ali mosque was unguarded by the Coalition because they didn’t want our infidel boys near it, and yet some of them think it’s dandy to shoot people and blow them up inside or next to it? What hypocrisy. To be fair, I don’t think we know what the local Muslems feel about the Ali mosque – at least, I haven’t heard of any news reports from Reuters or the Guardian saying “Muslems shrug off mosque attack as ‘no big deal’”. For all we know, the local citizenry could be really pissed off about this as well, but it’s not getting played in the western media because it’s not seen as an international incident. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-hope-for-iraq/196309/59 "2003-08-30T12:27:19Z")
Iraq was kept together in one pice by the iron fist of Saddam Hussein. Now, the USA has undertaken the task of getting Kurds, Sunnis, Shiites, etc, to all get along nicely and I do not think the USA can do that, rather they will make things worse and cause greater internal divisions. Now some Iraqis will be considered traitors by cooperating with the occupation forces. One more division to add to the mess. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-hope-for-iraq/196309/60 "2003-08-30T13:24:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mehitabel \* > \*\* > As an aside, isn’t it funny that the Muslims were so outraged when one of our helicopters flew too close to a mosque and knocked down a flag, What hypocrisy. \*\* Yhe [banner was knocked down intentionally](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-banner29aug29,1,3010372.story) according to the US CG in Iraq. Childish crap like that act doesn’t help us much prove to the Iraqis that we are bringing “freedom.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-hope-for-iraq/196309.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-hope-for-iraq/196309.md?page=4)