# Any liguists around to explain the inexorable march towards 's denoting the plural? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 17, 2003, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-liguists-around-to-explain-the-inexorable-march-towards-s-denoting-the-plural/182519 "2003-06-17T18:46:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jumping\_Bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dec6dc/32.png) [@Jumping\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jumping_Bean)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-liguists-around-to-explain-the-inexorable-march-towards-s-denoting-the-plural/182519/1 "2003-06-17T18:46:21Z")
Everywhere I turn I see " 's " being used to denote the plural (e.g. “Tonight’s special’s are…”, “There are lots of monkey’s at the zoo”, etc.) I first noticed this on the internet about 6 years ago but now I see it everywhere. And it doesn’t seem to be restricted to the U.S., it’s even spreading to the birthplace of English. When I was in Heathrow recently, a sticker on the bus I was riding between terminals admonished me to “not lean on the door’s”. What I would like to know is why is something that doesn’t strike me as an easily made mistake (like say, writing “definately”) becoming so universally adopted? Is there some kind of rule of linguistic evolution at work here? P.S. - The only thing that I can think of, is people making the mistake of applying the infrequently used rule about adding an apostrophy to the end of word ending with “s” to all plurals. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-liguists-around-to-explain-the-inexorable-march-towards-s-denoting-the-plural/182519/2 "2003-06-17T19:15:31Z")
Could be from the cofusion between it’s and its, which a lot of people forget. The posseive form violates the rule in favor of the contraction. The contraction is not the plural, but maybe folks have this mental block related to messing up on those differences and carry it over to other words. Just a guess. BTW, one definately doesn’t see this in legit print media.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-liguists-around-to-explain-the-inexorable-march-towards-s-denoting-the-plural/182519/3 "2003-06-17T19:19:21Z")
I would think that since you can add “s” to words in two different ways (plurals and possessives), people get the two mixed up. My favorite example of this was a styrofoam cup placed near the cash register at a convenience store, which held pennies for customers to use. It said “PENNY’S”. I was hoping to need a penny for the transaction, so I could say “I was about to take a penny from that cup, but I see they belong to someone else.” ---
**Author:** ![Dragontoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ba8739/32.png) [@Dragontoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dragontoes)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-liguists-around-to-explain-the-inexorable-march-towards-s-denoting-the-plural/182519/4 "2003-06-17T19:23:29Z")
I’m afraid that is HAS infiltrated media–even in print–product information, etc. The most prevalent misusage seems to be “CD’s” instead of “CDs.” It only serves to prove that English teachers are not doing their jobs…and the general populace is no longer concerned about whether or not it appears to be uneducated, as it seems to be just as common among college graduates as it is among high school dropouts… ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-liguists-around-to-explain-the-inexorable-march-towards-s-denoting-the-plural/182519/5 "2003-06-17T19:24:09Z")
> [@](#): > > _John Mace wrote:_ > The posseive form violates the rule in favor of the contraction. What rule is this? “Its” _follows_ the rule that possessive pronounce don’t get an apostrophe: hers, ours, theirs. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-liguists-around-to-explain-the-inexorable-march-towards-s-denoting-the-plural/182519/6 "2003-06-17T19:25:43Z")
I _thought_ “pronouns”; I typed “pronounce.” ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-liguists-around-to-explain-the-inexorable-march-towards-s-denoting-the-plural/182519/7 "2003-06-17T19:37:46Z")
The reason it’s occuring is because literacy is becoming more and more the provenance of the few, with illiteracy or semi-literacy being more and more the limit of ability of the bleating mass that does what it’s told. I’m making quite sure my own children are literate and well-educated. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-liguists-around-to-explain-the-inexorable-march-towards-s-denoting-the-plural/182519/8 "2003-06-17T19:41:46Z")
This isn’t really a linguistics issue. I don’t think linguists would consider the matter very important since it doesn’t affect spoken language (it’s unrelated to pronunciation or meaning) and is just a matter of placement of the apostrophe. > [@](#): > > The reason it’s occuring is because literacy is becoming more and more the provenance of the few, with illiteracy or semi-literacy being more and more the limit of ability of the bleating mass that does what it’s told. That’s actually completely false, shows little understanding of what literacy is, and gets pretty weird at the end. ---
**Author:** ![stoyel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/54ee81/32.png) [@stoyel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stoyel)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-liguists-around-to-explain-the-inexorable-march-towards-s-denoting-the-plural/182519/9 "2003-06-17T19:42:03Z")
Right. Only proper nouns get the apostrophe. The car is Bob’s. Whose? The car is his. “It” isn’t a proper noun. I see “CD’s” a lot, too (and was once guilty of it myself) – I, for one, was never taught a rule for acronyms, so I adopted what I saw in common practice until I knew better. ---
**Author:** ![NightRabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbce88/32.png) [@NightRabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NightRabbit)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-liguists-around-to-explain-the-inexorable-march-towards-s-denoting-the-plural/182519/10 "2003-06-17T19:46:37Z")
**CurtC** , haven’t you ever seen “our’s” or “her’s”? I certainly have… ---
**Author:** ![j.c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@j.c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j.c)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-liguists-around-to-explain-the-inexorable-march-towards-s-denoting-the-plural/182519/11 "2003-06-17T19:50:29Z")
There are plenty of people - linguist, cognative scientists, usability experts, ect. - doing work on how our motor skills can overwhelm or brains. There are stacks and stacks of papers devoted to common typos, what they may or may not mean, and the increased tolorance for typos in a modern world were typing is done by everyone instead of the ace gals of the “typing pool.” If you want to subscribe to some journals, you can read this stuff. Or, you can go down to your local library and get it on CD. ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-liguists-around-to-explain-the-inexorable-march-towards-s-denoting-the-plural/182519/12 "2003-06-17T20:10:38Z")
Although I am no cunning linguist, I believe part of the problem may stem from the fact that _some_ plurals do use an apostraphe, particularly letters and numbers, as in “Bob’s password is just three _A’s_ followed by three _B’s_”. I found a nice little web page about this subject at [http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/marks/apostrophe.htm](http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/marks/apostrophe.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Jayrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Jayrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayrot)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-liguists-around-to-explain-the-inexorable-march-towards-s-denoting-the-plural/182519/13 "2003-06-17T20:21:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Marley23 \* > \*\*This isn’t really a linguistics issue. I don’t think linguists would consider the matter very important since it doesn’t affect spoken language (it’s unrelated to pronunciation or meaning) and is just a matter of placement of the apostrophe. > \*\* Quite right. As a linguist, I can tell you that it’s not very important (or interesting). A language’s orthography is generally very illogical and in many cases changes due to simple errors and mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![Padmaraga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f07891/32.png) [@Padmaraga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padmaraga)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-liguists-around-to-explain-the-inexorable-march-towards-s-denoting-the-plural/182519/14 "2003-06-17T20:26:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Marley23 \* > \*\*That’s actually completely false, shows little understanding of what literacy is, and gets pretty weird at the end. \*\* But at least Dogface used “it’s” correctly.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-liguists-around-to-explain-the-inexorable-march-towards-s-denoting-the-plural/182519/15 "2003-06-17T20:49:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CurtC \* > \*\*What rule is this? “Its” _follows_ the rule that possessive pronounce don’t get an apostrophe: hers, ours, theirs. \*\* But look at how it’s and its are used: The book is damaged. Its cover is torn. She is hurt. Her arm is broken. Your examples of hers, ours, theirs are used differently. You don’t say “Hers arm is broken.” One almost never says something like: The dog has a bone. The bone is its. But you would say: Bob has a car. The car is Bob’s. or The car is his. So, the analogy is: I I’m my you you’re your it it’s its he he’s his she she’s her we we’re our you you’re your they they’re their only one has the same spelling in the 2 last columns (ignoring apostrophes). Anyway, this is just my own theory. I’m not quoting any experts. But I do agree that one sees CD’s and ATM’s a lot for plurals. I think in that case people just know what’s correct. ---
**Author:** ![stoyel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/54ee81/32.png) [@stoyel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stoyel)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-liguists-around-to-explain-the-inexorable-march-towards-s-denoting-the-plural/182519/16 "2003-06-17T21:38:00Z")
On the other hand, That is her car. That is its car. Take a look at these: Give that to him. Give that to her. That is his. That is hers. That is his car. That is her car. So we have him/her, his/hers, his/her. By contrast, his/her/its is easy. We simply don’t have an acceptable form of ‘it’ for his/her\*\*s/… ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-liguists-around-to-explain-the-inexorable-march-towards-s-denoting-the-plural/182519/17 "2003-06-17T22:38:19Z")
A bunch of things come into play. The plural of nouns, common or proper, is usually formed by adding -s or -es (most people know the exceptions quite well). The possessive of singular nouns is formed by adding -‘s, as is the possessive of plural nouns not ending in “S” “The sheep’s diet is composed of grass and fragrant herbs” is true whether or not you’re talking about one sheep or a flock. There’s a fairly complex rule about when to use -s’ or -s’s for possessive plural. Pronouns are irregular, never take an apostrophe for the possessive, and have two possessive forms, the prenominal and the disjunctive: [ul][li]That is my ball; that ball is mine.[/li][li]That is thy ball; that ball is thine.[/li][li]That is his ball; that ball is his.[/li][li]That is her ball; that ball is hers.[/li][li]That is its ball; that ball is its.[/li][li]That is our ball; that ball is ours.[/li][li]That is your ball; that ball is yours.[/li][li]That is their ball; that ball is theirs.[/ul][/li] Now, numbers, letters with self-referential meaning, and a few other symbols, are pluralized by adding -'s. “Mind your P’s and Q’s.” “We’re all out of Number 1’s.” “Use ;'s when separating long clauses.” (But in the last instance, prefer writing out the word semicolons.) "#'s are used both to represent pounds of weight (when they follow the number) and to introduce numbers. All the above represent good English usage, on both sides of the Pond. But “Tomato’s – $1 a pound” is a solecism, pure and simple. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2003, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-liguists-around-to-explain-the-inexorable-march-towards-s-denoting-the-plural/182519/18 "2003-06-17T22:47:41Z")
Scan the notices posted near your corner grocerery store, Jumping Bean. Sadly, you’ll see a number of words spelled with the apostrophe in front of EVERY SINGLE “S!” ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-liguists-around-to-explain-the-inexorable-march-towards-s-denoting-the-plural/182519/19 "2003-06-18T02:09:39Z")
I think it is matter of form. CD’s looks better than CDs. Most of the time I see it is in acronyms. I have never seen our’s. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-liguists-around-to-explain-the-inexorable-march-towards-s-denoting-the-plural/182519/20 "2003-06-18T04:34:08Z")
This has long been a major pet peeve of mine. My theory has always been that plurals formed with the apostrophe became common mainly because many people share **Markxxx** ’s feeling about pluralizing abbreviations like VCR and CD. (N.B. Neither of these examples is an acronym, because you don’t pronounce them as words. But that’s another thread.) They were concerned that the distinction between the capitalized letters and the lower case “s” would be lost. There are also situations where abbreviations are commonly put in all lower case, in which the “s” could conceivably change the meaning of the term. (Unfortunately, none comes to mind at the moment.) Add to this the case of words that end in vowels, like ski and do. Believing that “skis” and “dos” (as in “dos and don’ts”) would be misunderstood, they added the apostrophe. [A digression: Even I, a professional writer and editor, and thus a die-hard opponent of the pactice, have found myself with no practical alternative when faced with a film titled _Ultimate G’s_ (referring to G forces). It kills me every time I have to do it, but _Ultimate Gs_ just doesn’t work. End digression.] Once these rare (and perhaps marginally justifiable) exceptions became common, the teeming millions latched onto the practice, decided it was the rule, and started putting the apostrophes everywhere. And thus we witness another sure sign of the coming of the end times. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-liguists-around-to-explain-the-inexorable-march-towards-s-denoting-the-plural/182519.md?page=2)