# Any love for H. Rider Haggard? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 24, 2017, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-love-for-h-rider-haggard/794615 "2017-08-24T23:44:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-love-for-h-rider-haggard/794615/21 "2017-08-26T18:01:29Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, yes and no. I’m very fond of many writers from earlier times, quite a few of whom are stylistically Haggard’s superiors. Conan Doyle is certainly better. Doyle really is an excellent writer: I’ve only recently come to grips with a self-concealed truth \*, that his ethics were utterly _appalling_. - Starting with the attempt at age 12 to read his unreadable story of everyday traitors, ' **Micah Clarke**" Still, a week ago I did revisit the **[Unspeakable](https://www.arthur-conan-doyle.com/index.php?title=Sir_Arthur_Conan_Doyle:Captain_Sharkey)** Sharkey… > [@](#): > > Hemingway is, in my opinion, next to unreadable. Not a scintilla of argument, Never cared for the angsty Fitzgerald either. > [@](#): > > I’ve never read any Merritt: is “Burn Witch Burn” a good book to start with? Or do you have another recommendation for a reader as an introduction? I personally would start with **[The Face in the Abyss](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Face_in_the_Abyss)**. > [@](#): > > I like the Fu Manchu novels, but, wow, do they have flaws. They, too, are highly episodic (were they originally published in serial form?) They’re also repetitive: you’d think, after the thirtieth time, Nayland Smith would learn not to just charge into a series of tunnels that Fu Manchu has been using. There are going to be traps! A certain distance because of his heavy pseudonym ( Sax = Seaxe [dagger], Rohmer = Wanderer ), and I think his style as bad as Upton Sinclair’s could be ( _“Hi !” he laughed. — “I need a favor !” she returned. “Of course !” he laughed._ ), but he had a fine imagination. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-love-for-h-rider-haggard/794615/22 "2017-08-27T14:02:37Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’ve never read any Merritt: is “Burn Witch Burn” a good book to start with? Or do you have another recommendation for a reader as an introduction? > > I like the Fu Manchu novels, but, wow, do they have flaws. They, too, are highly episodic (were they originally published in serial form?) They’re also repetitive: you’d think, after the thirtieth time, Nayland Smith would learn not to just charge into a series of tunnels that Fu Manchu has been using. There are going to be traps! > > (What’s most intriguing about the Fu Manchu novels is how, by the very end, Rohmer had gotten past the stereotypical racism, and was able to make a young Chinese man the hero of a novel. Chinese communism was the creeping evil that needed to be opposed, not merely Chinese culture.) > > Still, in terms of pure story-telling skill, Rohmer is ahead of Haggard. Rohmer simply spins the superior yarn. > [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > I personally would start with **[The Face in the Abyss](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Face_in_the_Abyss)**. Hm Face in the Abyss is good, I am fond of Burn Witch Burn because it was the first thing of his I read [and had been made into movies twice as I recall][Seven Footprints to Satan](http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0601971h.html) is also interesting. I started reading the purple prose more frequently because I had the aldiko app on my phone that pulls ebooks off of feedbooks, and many of the free ones come from Project Gutenberg, and they had a lot of the turn of the 19th to 20th century books. Smetimes they can be a crap shoot, but I did discover [Barroness Orczy,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Orczy) [Le Fanu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheridan_Le_Fanu), [William Hope Hodgeson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Hope_Hodgson), [Thomas Hanshew](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_W._Hanshew), [R E Howard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Howard) … ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-love-for-h-rider-haggard/794615/23 "2017-08-27T15:04:08Z")
**Burn Witch Burn** was the source for **The Devil-Doll** (1936), a horror classic I’ve never seen, even though I own it in a DVD collection…was it ever remade? Or are you confusing it with Fritz Lieber’s **Conjure Wife** , which was filmed a couple of times, including in 1962, when it was released as…wait for it… **Burn Witch Burn**. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-love-for-h-rider-haggard/794615/24 "2017-08-27T16:04:51Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > Maybe Edgar Wallace’s Sanders series ? > Wallace was a disciple of Kipling, not that it showed that much since he settled on the East End gutters to leafy suburbs of London mostly. Complete with villainous large-scale gangs. > Incidentally Kipling and Haggard corresponded after the First World War, bonding over their hatred of bungalow buildings and trade unions. Both moved sharpish to the right as old age took over. You’re right, it was Edgar Wallace’s Sanders series. Well, speaking of old age setting in, I had everything right but the author. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-love-for-h-rider-haggard/794615/25 "2017-08-27T16:18:44Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > **Burn Witch Burn** was the source for **The Devil-Doll** (1936), a horror classic I’ve never seen, even though I own it in a DVD collection…was it ever remade? > > Or are you confusing it with Fritz Lieber’s **Conjure Wife** , which was filmed a couple of times, including in 1962, when it was released as…wait for it… **Burn Witch Burn**. It was done once as a silent and once as The Devil Doll, and then it was used as the kernal of the idea for a Twilight Zone [or was it one of the other series? - basically evil person makes people into little dolls and sends them out to do nasty crap and steal =) Though Conjure Wife was pretty good, I do like Lieber =) ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-love-for-h-rider-haggard/794615/26 "2017-08-27T16:39:54Z")
John Dickson Carr, either as himself or as Carter Dickson, had a [\*\*number \*\*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dickson_Carr)of books including the words _Witch_, _Burn_, \*Fire \*in the titles, and rather too often, _Death_. Not to mention _Skeleton_, \*Graveyard \*etc… Yet by no means a morbid writer. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-love-for-h-rider-haggard/794615/27 "2017-08-27T17:05:46Z")
_Conjure Wife_ is THE BEST ADVENTURE NOVEL EVER WRITTEN. Except for _She._ (Come on, ya nerd bastards, pile on me again) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-love-for-h-rider-haggard/794615/28 "2017-08-27T17:06:30Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > . . . I started reading the purple prose more frequently because I had the aldiko app on my phone that pulls ebooks off of feedbooks, and many of the free ones come from Project Gutenberg, and they had a lot of the turn of the 19th to 20th century books. Smetimes they can be a crap shoot, but I did discover [Barroness Orczy,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Orczy) [Le Fanu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheridan_Le_Fanu), [William Hope Hodgeson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Hope_Hodgson), [Thomas Hanshew](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_W._Hanshew), [R E Howard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Howard) … I know (and love) Orczy and Howard; I don’t know Hodgeson or Hanshew, but they’re now on my radar scope! Thank you! Gutenberg was where I found Robert W. Chambers, perhaps most famous for “The King in Yellow.” Most of his books are about rich New York elites having trouble with alcoholism, but his book “The Lost Children” was set in the same pre-Revolutionary War New York frontier as Fenimore-Cooper’s Deerslayer stories…and was a couple of million per cent better than anything Cooper ever wrote. (He even slipped in a couple of Cooper’s characters for cameo appearances!) More recently, I found Meredith Nicholson, who writes whimsical romances (and sometimes very straight romances) with a particularly loving touch. One of the most genteel writers I’ve ever stumbled across. I love just “throwing a dart” at Project Gutenberg and savoring what comes up. It is a wonderful mine full of gems! H. Rider Haggard’s period is chock-full of wonders and treasures. Alas, Haggard himself is simply not among them. ---
**Author:** ![Sangahyando](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Sangahyando](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sangahyando)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-love-for-h-rider-haggard/794615/29 "2017-08-27T20:53:24Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > Incidentally Kipling and Haggard corresponded after the First World War, bonding over their hatred of bungalow buildings and trade unions. Both moved sharpish to the right as old age took over. Picking up on this, somewhat trivially – but, to mention a silly thing which sticks in my mind. I recall reading of the above-mentioned correspondence between the two ageing, increasingly gloom-and-doom-beset authors: in which they solemnnly agreed that planet Earth was, with absolute certainty, “one of the Hells”. They indeed had a very low opinion of the political Left generally – especially of what was then going on in Russia. Not to suggest that IMO, they were wrong about this very last issue: but their published correspondence moved a British leftist at the time to a bit of light verse which has always tickled me: running in part, as follows. " ‘Every Bolsh is a blackguard,’ Said Kipling to Haggard; ‘And a blooming outsider,’ Said Rudyard to Rider – ‘And given to tippling,’ Said Haggard to Kipling. ‘Their domain is a blood-yard,’ Said Rider to Rudyard… ‘It is true what you say,’ Said the author of _They_ – ‘I agree, I agree,’ Said the author of _She_." ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-love-for-h-rider-haggard/794615/30 "2017-08-27T21:11:46Z")
Haggard is a great adventure writer; _King Solomon’s Mines_ is probably his best work. I certainly did not find it “dull”. I don’t think that is the general consensus, either, but there is no arguing about tastes. He did write innumerable books, many of which were repetitious. One of his lesser known books which I quite liked was _Nada the Lilly_, which featured an adventure in which all the heroes (and titular heroine) were Black Africans. Though still occasionally groanworthy by modern standards on racial issues (did he absolutely _have_ to mention that the beautiful Nada was ‘comparatively light of skin’ just to appeal to his audience? Apparently so!), it is still an impressive feat for his time to have an entire book lack a White European hero. Very loosely based on the rise and fall of Chaka Zulu. Indeed, his works are an odd mixture in racial matters, which probably has inspired many a PhD thesis. 😃 In _King Solomon’s Mines_, he is careful to have his narrator/mouthpiece say how much he dislikes anyone calling Africans by the n-word, because in his opinion Black Africans are just as likely to be “gentlemen” as Whites - which is a pretty advanced notion for his time. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-love-for-h-rider-haggard/794615/31 "2017-08-27T22:21:01Z")
I haven’t read _much_ Haggard, but I think I’ve done a fair initial survey. “King Solomon’s Mines” was the best of all I’ve read so far. “She” was also pretty good. “Moon of Israel” and “Montezuma’s Daughter” were painfully episodic, with VERY long speeches, and far too much telegraphing of plot elements. He spends way too much time telling you the outcome of parts of the story – “And I would never see him alive again…” “If I had known what woe would befall…” “But that, as we shall see, did not come to pass…” – and I hold that to be a very significant shortcoming in an adventure writer. His imagination is pretty good, and his characters have some strengths. I definitely applaud him for having a social conscience in advance of the tenor of the times. He dealt with racial themes with much more liberality than many others of his contemporaries. I’m just finding his literary sins to be difficult to overcome. His books aren’t exactly dull…but they have grave weaknesses. But, yes, definitely, tastes are individual! If you’ve enjoyed his books, I’m certainly not going to say you’re wrong! ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-love-for-h-rider-haggard/794615/32 "2017-08-27T22:32:28Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Gutenberg was where I found Robert W. Chambers, perhaps most famous for “The King in Yellow.” As a complete aside, I nearly fell out of my chair when watching _True Detective_ on the TV and references to _The King in Yellow_ featured prominently. I thought that was just about the most obscure reference possible. 😃 Evidently not … ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-love-for-h-rider-haggard/794615/33 "2017-08-27T22:46:33Z")
I’ve read _King Solomon’s Mines_ and the sequel to _She_ that was set in Tibet, can’t remember the name. Neither was amazing, both were quite good though. On that note, I’m curious if anyone knows the answer: in _King Solomon’s Mines_ the villain is executed by single combat, since he’s a member of the royal family and can’t be killed in cold blood. Are there any historical examples of cultures that used that as a method of execution? ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-love-for-h-rider-haggard/794615/34 "2017-08-28T05:00:14Z")
I read the the Classics Illustrated versions of _King Solomon’s Mines_ and _Cleopatra_. Later on I read those and _She_. They were okay. In the 80s I bought cheap editions of the _She_ sequels. I haven’t gone back to them, but now I may try the first 3 again. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-love-for-h-rider-haggard/794615/35 "2017-08-28T11:46:28Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > I read the the Classics Illustrated versions of _King Solomon’s Mines_ and _Cleopatra_. Later on I read those and _She_. They were okay. In the 80s I bought cheap editions of the _She_ sequels. I haven’t gone back to them, but now I may try the first 3 again. Classics Illustrated never did an adaptation of **She** , unfortunately, but there was a now-obscure competitor, Famous Authors Illustrated, who did do an adaptation in 1948. You can find it online if you look. [http://www.mycomicshop.com/search?TID=288671](http://www.mycomicshop.com/search?TID=288671) > **[Stories By Famous Authors Illustrated 3 - She - Version 1](https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=23423)** > > This book has 52 pages and was uploaded by staunton on May 30, 2012. The file size is 55.2mb. Publisher is Seaboard Publishing There was also a comic-book adaptation done by Marvel comics when they rleased their line of Clasics Ilustrated wannabees in the 1970s > **[Amazon.com: Marvel Classics Comics #24 "SHE" (Comic - 1977) (Vol. 1): H. Rider...](https://www.amazon.com/Marvel-Classics-Comics-SHE-Comic/dp/B003U760FO)** > > Amazon.com: Marvel Classics Comics #24 "SHE" (Comic - 1977) (Vol. 1): H. Rider Haggard: Books [https://10deb7fbfece20ff53da-95da5b03499e7e5b086c55c243f676a1.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/8694959cf2d53e57681d8fdc472468d6\_xl.jpg](https://10deb7fbfece20ff53da-95da5b03499e7e5b086c55c243f676a1.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/8694959cf2d53e57681d8fdc472468d6_xl.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-love-for-h-rider-haggard/794615/36 "2017-08-28T12:06:37Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I’ve read _King Solomon’s Mines_ and the sequel to _She_ that was set in Tibet, can’t remember the name. Neither was amazing, both were quite good though. > > On that note, I’m curious if anyone knows the answer: in _King Solomon’s Mines_ the villain is executed by single combat, since he’s a member of the royal family and can’t be killed in cold blood. Are there any historical examples of cultures that used that as a method of execution? I don’t know the answer to that, but the Mongols had an equally curious custom about killing members of any royal family: their blood could not be shed with weapons (unlike other folks), so they were always smothered or trampled to death. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-love-for-h-rider-haggard/794615.md?page=1)