# Any Mid-sized cars with manual transmissions? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 7, 2015, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-mid-sized-cars-with-manual-transmissions/717057 "2015-04-07T19:03:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-mid-sized-cars-with-manual-transmissions/717057/41 "2015-04-08T18:21:37Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > That’s all somewhat true, and simply the costs of engineering any extra option become hard to amortize with a low take rate, but modern automatics are still _massively_ more expensive than the manual which hasn’t changed much since the 60’s. I’ll wait for an authoritative cite on that before changing my opinion. Modern manufacturing processes (the ones that can make engines F1 cars would have dreamed about 30 years ago) have undoubtedly brought the mass-production cost down considerably. Computer controllers have simplified the hydraulics and their attendant complexities as well. Somewhat more expensive? Maybe. Not even sure about that, all things considered. Autos are fundamentally simpler internally than manuals, with 2-4 planetary sets and ring clutches rather than a dozen shafts full of gears and synchros. It’s only that servicing them took more than shade-tree tools and tech. > [@](#): > > There’s all sorts of shell games they do with pricing of course, but I think in general the extra $1-3k you can expect to pay for an automatic these days is probably a pretty reasonable approximation of how much more it actually costs to make. Manufacturing cost and consumer shakedown are only very loosely connected. It’s an all-the-traffic-will-bear situation. You think a “passenger entertainment system” with the features of a $200 home system has a manufacturing cost in the thousands? Or a nav system that’s a dumb copy of a $100 Garmin GPS? Both run $1500-5000 on the markup, which isn’t even in the Oort cloud of a cost system. For most cars, auto=luxury and manual=cheapskate option. Which is why they’re priced that way, not because one is significantly costier than the other. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-mid-sized-cars-with-manual-transmissions/717057/42 "2015-04-08T18:40:11Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Manufacturing cost and consumer shakedown are only very loosely connected. It’s an all-the-traffic-will-bear situation. You think a “passenger entertainment system” with the features of a $200 home system has a manufacturing cost in the thousands? Or a nav system that’s a dumb copy of a $100 Garmin GPS? Both run $1500-5000 on the markup, which isn’t even in the Oort cloud of a cost system. > > For most cars, auto=luxury and manual=cheapskate option. Which is why they’re priced that way, not because one is significantly costier than the other. Maybe that’s true for the electronics, but it’s absolutely not for transmissions. Seriously, there’s a reason why remanufactured automatics costs thousands (sometimes many, many thousands) more than a manual. And as newer automatics have gotten more electronic controls, those prices have gone up, not down. CVT’s are even worse with a replacement usually somewhere north of $5k, although those prices may come down as they get more common. If automatics being more expensive than manuals is just some consumer shakedown on the part of the carmakers, there’s a _lot_ of folks in on it! ---
**Author:** ![Whiskey\_Dickens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9fc348/32.png) [@Whiskey\_Dickens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whiskey_Dickens)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-mid-sized-cars-with-manual-transmissions/717057/43 "2015-04-09T14:09:25Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > ETA: For the OP, why not look as something like a Ford Focus? It’s not _that_ small, top end trim lines come very nicely equipped, and they are still available with manual. In fact, the Ford Focus ST is manual only. Bottom line, some of the current “compact” cars are not much smaller than a “midsize” car from 15-20 years ago, and you don’t have to give up the nicer quality and technical gizmos. I actually drive a stick Focus (previous generation), and I love it. I tried to sell the wife on the current Focus, but the smallest she is considering is a mid-sized car. I don’t blame her, her car gets the majority of the child related trips, and car seats and strollers are massive. Even considering the hatch Focus there just isn’t the internal room. I rented a new Focus for business a few months ago, and we weren’t able to fit the stroller into the hatch, no matter how we oriented it. Good suggestion though, I do love the ST! ---
**Author:** ![Whiskey\_Dickens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9fc348/32.png) [@Whiskey\_Dickens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whiskey_Dickens)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-mid-sized-cars-with-manual-transmissions/717057/44 "2015-04-09T14:18:32Z")
Thanks to all for their suggestions! It looks like the Buick Regal and the Mazda6 are the front runners. Especially appreciated the suggestion of the VW CC. That car wasn’t on my radar at all until **bobkitty** mentioned it. ---
**Author:** ![Whiskey\_Dickens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9fc348/32.png) [@Whiskey\_Dickens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whiskey_Dickens)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-mid-sized-cars-with-manual-transmissions/717057/45 "2015-04-09T14:52:10Z")
Just built 3 mid-sized cars with manuals using online calculators. I went for the lowest possible option settings (no larger wheels, no entertainment upgrade packages, etc). Here are the results including sales taxes and fees for Ontario, Canada: Buick Regal GS: $47,480 Volkswagen CC: $43,034 Mazda6: $29,741 Looks like my choice is pretty clear! ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-mid-sized-cars-with-manual-transmissions/717057/46 "2015-04-09T14:57:56Z")
has Mazda addressed their rust issues yet? ---
**Author:** ![Whiskey\_Dickens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9fc348/32.png) [@Whiskey\_Dickens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whiskey_Dickens)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-mid-sized-cars-with-manual-transmissions/717057/47 "2015-04-09T15:26:45Z")
Good point,\*\* jz\*\*. My wife’s 2006 Mazda6 is a rust bucket. It’s rusting in weird places, like the window slide rail in the rear c-pillar. Most of the clear coat came off of the hood, too. Only 110,000 miles on it. Sad. I too would like to know if the corrosion resistance got better with later models. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-mid-sized-cars-with-manual-transmissions/717057/48 "2015-04-09T15:47:22Z")
> [@Whiskey\_Dickens](#): > > Just built 3 mid-sized cars with manuals using online calculators. I went for the lowest possible option settings (no larger wheels, no entertainment upgrade packages, etc). Here are the results including sales taxes and fees for Ontario, Canada: > > Buick Regal GS: $47,480 > > Volkswagen CC: $43,034 > > Mazda6: $29,741 > > Looks like my choice is pretty clear! You might want to take a look at some of the SUV’s on the Jalopnik list. Yeah, yuck, SUV’s but things like the CX-5 and the Subaru Forester start in the low $20k’s for a stick-equipped one. I haven’t driven a CX-5 but the Forester feels pretty much just like the station wagon it really is. One other thing though: that Jalopnik list is (presumably) just for the US and so you might want to poke around for some that might still be available in the ever-so-slightly more stick-friendly north. For example it looks like you can still get a Mazda5 with a stick shift up in Canada, but it went away in the US this year. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-mid-sized-cars-with-manual-transmissions/717057/49 "2015-04-09T16:04:47Z")
Ah-ha! Maybe the carmakers are just lazy about updating their Canadian websites, but Subaru.ca says you can still get a Legacy or Outback with a 6-speed manual. I’d definitely add the Legacy to your “to look at” list. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-mid-sized-cars-with-manual-transmissions/717057/50 "2015-04-09T16:50:58Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > Ah-ha! Maybe the carmakers are just lazy about updating their Canadian websites, but Subaru.ca says you can still get a Legacy or Outback with a 6-speed manual. I’d definitely add the Legacy to your “to look at” list. It’s a pity the Subaru Legacy Wagon is no longer sold in North America. I used to have one with a 5-speed manual, and chose it over the Outback for its superior handling and being less expensive (at the time, it was widely reported that the Outback trim made the car marginally better offroad but much worse on the highway.) It was a terrific car, up until it blew a head gasket at 130k miles. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-mid-sized-cars-with-manual-transmissions/717057/51 "2015-04-10T01:46:49Z")
> [@Whiskey\_Dickens](#): > > Just built 3 mid-sized cars with manuals using online calculators. I went for the lowest possible option settings (no larger wheels, no entertainment upgrade packages, etc). Here are the results including sales taxes and fees for Ontario, Canada: > > Buick Regal GS: $47,480 > > Volkswagen CC: $43,034 > > Mazda6: $29,741 > Looks like my choice is pretty clear! The Volkswagen CC is their ‘sport coupe’. The Passat is their ‘mid-size sedan’, and is about $10-12K (USD) less. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-mid-sized-cars-with-manual-transmissions/717057/52 "2015-04-10T12:13:55Z")
I see from **jz** ’s link in post 2 that several Hondas are still available with stick shifts, including the Accord and Civic. The Accord is classified as mid-size, and the Civic as a compact, but I’d really consider them to be on the high and low ends of mid-size. So that gives you another couple of options. (We’ve owned a 1986 Accord, and currently own 2000 and 2009 Accords, and we kinda wish we’d gotten a Civic instead of an Accord in 2009. The 2009 Accord is just too damn heavy, IMHO, and doesn’t move as well as the 2000. Even though we’re talking 222K miles v. 95K miles, the 2000 Accord is still a more nimble car than the 2009.) ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-mid-sized-cars-with-manual-transmissions/717057/53 "2015-04-10T17:09:33Z")
Yeah, Honda starting making the Accords too big. It annoys me. Great cars, though. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-mid-sized-cars-with-manual-transmissions/717057/54 "2015-04-10T17:44:15Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Yeah, Honda starting making the Accords too big. It annoys me. Great cars, though. that, unfortunately, is the way the whole industry has gone. Put a 2015 Taurus Next to a 1987 Taurus, and the 2015 is a leviathan by comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-mid-sized-cars-with-manual-transmissions/717057/55 "2015-04-10T17:59:47Z")
No kidding. Or the newer Subaru Outbacks, which have become oafish “crossover” vehicles. Not that I was ever really a fan. ---
**Author:** ![sparky\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/77aa72/32.png) [@sparky\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sparky_1)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-mid-sized-cars-with-manual-transmissions/717057/56 "2015-04-10T18:57:14Z")
> [@Whiskey\_Dickens](#): > > Just built 3 mid-sized cars with manuals using online calculators. I went for the lowest possible option settings (no larger wheels, no entertainment upgrade packages, etc). Here are the results including sales taxes and fees for Ontario, Canada: > > Buick Regal GS: $47,480 > > Volkswagen CC: $43,034 > > Mazda6: $29,741 > Looks like my choice is pretty clear! I have to say that I LOVE my 2015 Mazda6. I easily get high 30 mpg on the highway. The car has plenty of power for spirited driving. I have fit 5 large adults in it. The entire car is well put together and the interior has a very good feel to it. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-mid-sized-cars-with-manual-transmissions/717057/57 "2015-04-10T19:08:04Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > No kidding. Or the newer Subaru Outbacks, which have become oafish “crossover” vehicles. Not that I was ever really a fan. I had a 2004 Outback, and now drive a 2010 (oafish crossover) and frankly it’s bettter in every way except very poor visibility backing up. It’s actually shorter than my previous Outback, but taller and has much more interior space while getting much better gas mileage. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-mid-sized-cars-with-manual-transmissions/717057/58 "2015-04-10T19:08:26Z")
Mazda has been underrated for quite some time, in my opinion. > [@Telemark](#): > > I had a 2004 Outback, and now drive a 2010 (oafish crossover) and frankly it’s bettter in every way except very poor visibility backing up. It’s actually shorter than my previous Outback, but taller and has much more interior space. _De gustibus non est disputandum_. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-mid-sized-cars-with-manual-transmissions/717057/59 "2015-04-10T20:06:58Z")
> [@Whiskey\_Dickens](#): > > Just built 3 mid-sized cars with manuals using online calculators. I went for the lowest possible option settings (no larger wheels, no entertainment upgrade packages, etc). Here are the results including sales taxes and fees for Ontario, Canada: > > Buick Regal GS: $47,480 > > Volkswagen CC: $43,034 > > Mazda6: $29,741 > Looks like my choice is pretty clear! Pretty sure the VW Passat (not CC) has a manual transmission option, and it’s a pretty great car overall, and should be more similar to the Mazda in price than the other two. ---
**Author:** ![ReticulatingSplines](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@ReticulatingSplines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ReticulatingSplines)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-mid-sized-cars-with-manual-transmissions/717057/60 "2015-04-12T18:11:19Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > So I’ve gotten into an admittedly bad habit of changing from first to second, then to fourth (skipping third), and then to sixth (skipping 5th). How much damage am I causing, if any? I disagree with the people who categorically say “none;” it’s possible to execute with no damage, but you have to do it right. For example, skip shifting at too-low RPMs will lug your engine. Conversely, if you aren’t letting the revs drop off enough before skipping, your synchos will wear prematurely. Honda put out a service bulletin (HSN0106-01) about it some years back. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-mid-sized-cars-with-manual-transmissions/717057.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-mid-sized-cars-with-manual-transmissions/717057.md?page=4)