# Any Non-Muslim, Non-Communist Nations NOT Have Freedom of Religion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 20, 2001, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-non-muslim-non-communist-nations-not-have-freedom-of-religion/94389 "2001-11-20T14:30:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-non-muslim-non-communist-nations-not-have-freedom-of-religion/94389/1 "2001-11-20T14:30:15Z")
Are there any nations that are not communist and not predominantly Muslim where the citizens DO NOT have freedom of religion? I’m talking about places where the laws specifically prohibit certain religions, or where the law grants freedom of religion **on paper** , but in practice persecution reigns. ---
**Author:** ![Hemlock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Hemlock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hemlock)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-non-muslim-non-communist-nations-not-have-freedom-of-religion/94389/2 "2001-11-20T14:41:55Z")
Interesting question. Russia gives the Orthodox Church an exalted position, and I believe has recently clamped down on competing protestant sects, including the Salvation Army. Ex-Yugoslavia harbors religious intolerance. Belarus and Ukraine, perhaps? Of course, all these places are fresh out of communism. Trying to think of anywhere else… If it’s plain persecution you want, there are loads of examples (India, Nigeria and N Ireland all spring to mind). But state-sanctioned religious persecution… Not much around outside communist/Muslim places. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-non-muslim-non-communist-nations-not-have-freedom-of-religion/94389/3 "2001-11-20T14:43:38Z")
I really can’t think of any examples of the kind you mean, but there are certainly countries where Scientology, Satanism or witchcraft are discriminated against by law, at least in theory. ---
**Author:** ![Hemlock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Hemlock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hemlock)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-non-muslim-non-communist-nations-not-have-freedom-of-religion/94389/4 "2001-11-20T14:44:10Z")
Oh, I almost forgot. France and Germany make life very difficult for Scientologists. And the Utah authorities keep picking on Mormon guys who just want to mind their own business and marry a 12 year old or three… ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-non-muslim-non-communist-nations-not-have-freedom-of-religion/94389/5 "2001-11-20T14:48:33Z")
Isn’t there some half-the-size-of-Sangamon-county little European microstate (Andorra, perhaps) whose constitution (or charter or whatever) specifically states: all citizens of this country shall be Roman Catholics, or they shall leave [paraphrased]. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-non-muslim-non-communist-nations-not-have-freedom-of-religion/94389/6 "2001-11-20T14:56:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rastahomie \* > \*\*Isn’t there some half-the-size-of-Sangamon-county little European microstate (Andorra, perhaps) whose constitution (or charter or whatever) specifically states: all citizens of this country shall be Roman Catholics, or they shall leave [paraphrased]. \*\* The Vatican City State?🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Hemlock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Hemlock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hemlock)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-non-muslim-non-communist-nations-not-have-freedom-of-religion/94389/7 "2001-11-20T15:02:06Z")
It’s illegal for a non-episcopalian to be monarch in the UK (much to the relief of non-episcopalians, I suspect). ---
**Author:** ![Dryga\_Yes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@Dryga\_Yes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dryga_Yes)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-non-muslim-non-communist-nations-not-have-freedom-of-religion/94389/8 "2001-11-20T16:07:57Z")
Most western nations (I’m fairly sure France doesn’t… any others?) have anti-polygamy laws. Could these be considered against Freedom of Religion? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-non-muslim-non-communist-nations-not-have-freedom-of-religion/94389/9 "2001-11-20T19:26:59Z")
There are places in North and South Africa that still charge (and kill) people as witches (whether they are simply healers or people that have annoyed higher-ups). Americans may have the freedom to choose their religion but not so much to choose none at all. No, wait, silly me, atheists AREN’T Americans, according to George Bush (the first incarnation)-= “I don’t know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.” ---
**Author:** ![Milton\_De\_La\_Warre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Milton\_De\_La\_Warre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milton_De_La_Warre)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-non-muslim-non-communist-nations-not-have-freedom-of-religion/94389/10 "2001-11-20T19:57:48Z")
What about officially Roman Catholic nations, like Ireland? Is freedom of religion the right to profess beliefs, or the right to practice the tenets of the belief? Or is it even/also the right not to practice as the “official” religion dictates? I don’t know if it is true, but I did hear that practicing brith control --as in having and or selling condoms, the pill, etc.— was or is illegal in Ireland as it is against the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. I am not sure if Ireland specifically prohibits by statute other non-RC faiths, but it would seem that it is at the very least highly intolerant of them. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-non-muslim-non-communist-nations-not-have-freedom-of-religion/94389/11 "2001-11-20T21:40:34Z")
I can’t think of any non-Communist countries except Muslim ones that officially prohibit the public practice of other religions. But various countries do have some form of “established church” or “national religion” that in practice gives legal preferences to the majority religion, or delegitimizes certain minority religions. Some examples: [Poland:](http://www.state.gov/www/global/human_rights/irf/irf_rpt/1999/irf_poland99.html) > [@](#): > > State-run radio broadcasts Catholic Mass on Sundays, and the Catholic Church is authorized to relicense radio and television stations to operate on frequencies assigned to the Church, the only body outside the National Radio and Television Broadcasting Council allowed to do so. > > Although the Constitution gives parents the right to bring up their children in compliance with their own religious and philosophical beliefs, religious education classes continue to be taught in the public schools at public expense. […] Priests and other instructors receive salaries from the state budget for teaching religion in public schools, and Catholic Church representatives are included on a commission that determines whether books qualify for school use. > > [Another article on de facto Catholic control of sex-related legislation in Poland.](http://www.futureframe.de/zeitgeist/000424-polsex.htm) [Israel:](http://www.state.gov/www/global/human_rights/irf/irf_rpt/1999/irf_israel99.html) > [@](#): > > The Government recognizes 5 religions, including 10 Christian groups. Each religion recognized by the Government has its own religious court system, which has considerable authority over issues of personal status. Government recognition is limited to religions present in the country before 1948. […] A 1977 antiproselytizing law prohibits anyone from offering or receiving material benefits as an inducement to conversion; there have been no reports of its enforcement. […] Jewish and Druze families may ask that some family status matters, such as alimony and child custody in divorces, be adjudicated in civil courts as an alternative to religious courts. Christians may only ask that child custody and child support be adjudicated in civil courts as an alternative to religious courts. Muslims have no recourse to civil courts in family-status matters. […] > > On March 30, 1999, another member of Jehovah’s Witnesses was summoned to a police station in Beersheva for allegedly distributing a religious tract to a soldier. She was charged with the “unlawful distribution of a religious tract to a soldier, attempting to convert him to another religion, and assault on religious sentiments.” Russia: > [@](#): > > In October 1997, the Government enacted a new, restrictive, and potentially discriminatory law on religion, which raised questions about the Government’s commitment to international agreements honoring freedom of religion. Passage of the law prompted concern in the international community, because for the first time since the breakup of the Soviet Union, the Government had adopted legislation that could abridge fundamental human rights. This law replaced the progressive 1990 religion law that had helped facilitate a revival of religious activity. > > The new law ostensibly targeted so-called “totalitarian sects” or dangerous religious cults. However, the intent of some of the law’s sponsors appears to have been to discriminate against members of foreign and less well-established religions by making it difficult for them to manifest their beliefs through organized religious institutions. The critics of the law believe that the basic assumption behind the law is that religious groups must prove their innocence and their legitimacy before gaining the advantages of state recognition. […] The Russian Orthodox Church was involved actively in drafting the 1997 law on religion. It has made special arrangements with government agencies to conduct religious education and to provide spiritual counseling to Russian military service members. These arrangements do not appear to be available to other religions. (In particular, Muslim religious leaders have complained that they are not permitted to minister to Muslim military service members.) ---
**Author:** ![Kipper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Kipper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kipper)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2001, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-non-muslim-non-communist-nations-not-have-freedom-of-religion/94389/12 "2001-11-21T04:17:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hibernicus \* > \*\*I really can’t think of any examples of the kind you mean, but there are certainly countries where Scientology, Satanism or witchcraft are discriminated against by law, at least in theory. \*\* Scientology, although not illegal as such, as been declared to not be a valid religion, but rather a cult, in a High Court decision in New Zealand. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2001, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-non-muslim-non-communist-nations-not-have-freedom-of-religion/94389/13 "2001-11-21T04:36:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hemlock \* > \*\*It’s illegal for a non-episcopalian to be monarch in the UK (much to the relief of non-episcopalians, I suspect). \*\* I think the Act of Settlement merely prohibits Roman Catholics and their spouses from being the monarch (along with those few people who aren’t direct descendants of Sophia, Electress of Hannover). Doesn’t Sweden also have a state-sponsored church? I’ve read that the president of Lebanon is required by law to be Christian. And I think the (Roman Catholic) Bishop of Urgell is one of the heads of state of Andorra. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2001, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-non-muslim-non-communist-nations-not-have-freedom-of-religion/94389/14 "2001-11-21T04:39:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cat Fight \* > \*\*There are places in North and South Africa that still charge (and kill) people as witches (whether they are simply healers or people that have annoyed higher-ups). > Americans may have the freedom to choose their religion but not so much to choose none at all. No, wait, silly me, atheists AREN’T Americans, according to George Bush (the first incarnation)-= “I don’t know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.” \*\* Now, now, Bush was stating his (utterly stupid, methinks as an atheist) personal opinion, not official policy. Presidents can do that, ya know (have opinions, I mean). ---
**Author:** ![Kerriensis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5ac83/32.png) [@Kerriensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kerriensis)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2001, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-non-muslim-non-communist-nations-not-have-freedom-of-religion/94389/15 "2001-11-21T09:08:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JCHeckler \* > \*\*What about officially Roman Catholic nations, like Ireland? > I am not sure if Ireland specifically prohibits by statute other non-RC faiths, but it would seem that it is at the very least highly intolerant of them. \*\* Not sure what your source on this is, but as an Irishman I feel obliged to leap to my country’s defence on this one! Ireland isn’t an officially Roman Catholic nation in any sense of the word! You can find the Article 44 of the Irish Constition on this page [http://www.maths.tcd.ie/local/JUNK/Constitution/Articles40-44.html](http://www.maths.tcd.ie/local/JUNK/Constitution/Articles40-44.html) and you’ll see that it in no sense prescribes Roman Catholicism as a state religion. Until 1972 the Constitution did include the following: 2º The State recognises the special position of the Holy Catholic Apostolic and Roman Church as the guardian of the Faith professed by the great majority of the citizens. 3º The State also recognises the Church of Ireland, the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, the Methodist Church in Ireland, the Religious Society of Friends in Ireland, as well as the Jewish Congregations and the other religious denominations existing in Ireland at the date of the coming into operation of this Constitution. the removal of which was supported by the Roman Catholic church itself, IIRC. Even the above was far from conferring official status of the Catholic Church. As regards your comments regarding intolerence of other faiths, I find it hard to believe that you have much first hand experience of Ireland. I suspect that the headlines regarding the political troubles in Northern Ireland give many people a misleading picture of the political and social climate in the Republic of Ireland which is probably as tolerant in religious matters as any other similar European state. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2001, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-non-muslim-non-communist-nations-not-have-freedom-of-religion/94389/16 "2001-11-21T09:21:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JCHeckler \* > \*\*What about officially Roman Catholic nations, like Ireland? > […] > I am not sure if Ireland specifically prohibits by statute other non-RC faiths, but it would seem that it is at the very least highly intolerant of them. \*\* Absolute nonsense. Allow me to quote Article 44 of the Constitution in full: > [@](#): > > The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion. > > Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen. > > The State guarantees not to endow any religion. > > The State shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status. > > Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school. > > Every religious denomination shall have the right to manage its own affairs, own, acquire and administer property, movable and immovable, and maintain institutions for religious or charitable purposes . > > The property of any religious denomination or any educational institution shall not be diverted save for necessary works of public utility and on payment of compensation. I don’t know where you got your ideas about Ireland, but if anything members of minority religions are over-represented in public life. The Republic of Ireland has a very high degree of religious tolerance, both at the official and personal level. ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2001, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-non-muslim-non-communist-nations-not-have-freedom-of-religion/94389/17 "2001-11-21T09:29:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by waterj2 \* > \*\* > Doesn’t Sweden also have a state-sponsored church? > \*\* Not anymore. The state and the church split a year or so ago, but the state still collects the then taxes now membership fees for the Church of Sweden and has also offered to do this for any congregation that wants this service. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2001, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-non-muslim-non-communist-nations-not-have-freedom-of-religion/94389/18 "2001-11-21T13:57:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hibernicus \* > \*\*[…]I don’t know where you got your ideas about Ireland, but if anything members of minority religions are over-represented in public life. The Republic of Ireland has a very high degree of religious tolerance, both at the official and personal level. \*\* The prior poster probably derives this from the heavily-media-publicized controversies over plain old divorce (or birth control for non-medical purposes for unmarried people) being unavailable to citizen/residents in very recent times (I lost track of when/if they changed it). But MANY other countries are in the same boat, having “freedom of worship” and “non establishment” yet incorporating into their civil legal system specific rules of the oldest-established/majoritarian religion, to the discomfort of nonbelievers (and even of believers that do not care much for the Clergy’s take on things). However, this would hardly be a freedom-of-religion issue, it would be more of a **political** “civil rights” vs. “traditional values” controversy, not unknown even in countries with the widest margin of FOR and SOCAS _(Defense of Marriage Act, anyone?)_. (Also, that first line of Art. 44 wherein it is explicitly stated that the State recognizes and reveres God is, well, interesting, but kind of superfluous – though I know some folks in the USA who’d love to have that.) As pointed out earlier in the thread, there ARE countries that though recognizing “freedom of worship” provide preferential treatment to one or more (Such as the Russian law which was allegedly specially designed to keep “outsiders” [mostly Christian and Muslim Fundamentalist] from “poaching” the faithful from the traditional denominations loyal to Mother Russia), or have the government set standards and pass judgement on what constitutes a legitimate religion. Even the USA does not have _absolute_ FOR. FOR is restricted by whether the activities are a threat to public safety or common morals. Ask the polygamist Mormon-variants, or the Branch Davidians.