# Any other ling-weenies here? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 28, 2001, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-ling-weenies-here/63676 "2001-04-28T22:13:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2001, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-ling-weenies-here/63676/21 "2001-04-30T00:34:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jomo Mojo \* > Bilabial fricatives don’t exist in English, but you can hear one in Spanish _b_ or _v_ between vowels. English _v_ is a labiodental using upper teeth and lower lip. Spanish intervocalic _b_ and _v_ use both lips and no teeth. Now practice saying “huevos de Habana.” \*\* That’s a voiced one; you can also find an unvoiced one in the Japanese “f” as in Fuji, which is not actually an “f” but a phi. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2001, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-ling-weenies-here/63676/22 "2001-04-30T10:59:39Z")
Rusty MA in linguistics (Edinburgh, 1985) checking in here. On balance, glad I did it… it’s made life interesting. Can manage to rub along in a few languages, too… my pronunciation in French and German really improved once I’d learned some phonetics and could figure out exactly what sounds I was _meant_ to be making… ---
**Author:** ![11811](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/9d8465/32.png) [@11811](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/11811)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2001, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-ling-weenies-here/63676/23 "2001-04-30T11:55:06Z")
Of the armchair variety. Formerly big fan of William Saffire’s column in the NYT Sunday Magazine (because I had access to it and didn’t have to pay for it). BA in Spanish in 1983, I just took an oral proficiency exam with hopes of teaching Spanish in NJ public schools. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2001, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-ling-weenies-here/63676/24 "2001-04-30T12:03:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\*[you can also find an unvoiced one in the Japanese “f” as in Fuji, which is not actually an “f” but a phi. \*\* Yeah, I’ve heard the Japanese _fu_ described as not an /f/ as we know it, but more like the puff you make to blow out a candle. It’s actually an allophone of the [h] phoneme: when it comes before _u_ it changes into the bilabial f (more accurately, Greek letter phi) sound. But it’s still written with the\* kana\* for h. The Japanese _u_ is different too: pronounced with unrounded lips, it’s a high back vowel like the Russian y (Cyrillic bI) or Turkish no-dot i. So neither the _f_ nor the _u_ in Romaji spelling gives you a good idea of these two sounds that don’t exist in English. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2001, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-ling-weenies-here/63676/25 "2001-04-30T14:18:13Z")
Ooooo! Turned m! That was just on my phx exam! Sweet! ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2001, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-ling-weenies-here/63676/26 "2001-04-30T15:04:48Z")
Yeah, **matt** , “turned m” (i.e., an m printed upside-down) is the high back unrounded vowel that is Japanese “_u_”. The Russian bI and the Turkish no-dot are not exactly the same sound, but they’re close. This is the “barred i”, a high-mid unrounded vowel. It’s further front than “turned m” but further back than the familiar front [i}. The “turned m” vowel also shows up as an allophone of [u} in Tamil. The [u} is /u/ when initial and medial, but becomes /turned m/ when final. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-ling-weenies-here/63676.md?page=1)