# Any other nations (then the USA) have sovern nations inside them? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 4, 2003, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-nations-then-the-usa-have-sovern-nations-inside-them/172943 "2003-05-04T00:49:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-nations-then-the-usa-have-sovern-nations-inside-them/172943/1 "2003-05-04T00:49:17Z")
Because the Indians (AKA native Americans) lost to the new Europian Americans we have created sovern Indian (or native American) nations where they can do their own thing and not pay taxes. Any other nations have such a policy? ---
**Author:** ![hegel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hegel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hegel)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-nations-then-the-usa-have-sovern-nations-inside-them/172943/2 "2003-05-04T00:51:46Z")
South Africa and Italy come to mind. ---
**Author:** ![hegel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hegel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hegel)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-nations-then-the-usa-have-sovern-nations-inside-them/172943/3 "2003-05-04T00:53:34Z")
Let me amend that post–South Africa contains Swaziland and Lesotho. Italy has Vatican City. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-nations-then-the-usa-have-sovern-nations-inside-them/172943/4 "2003-05-04T00:55:56Z")
The Vatican is a sovereign state which the tribes are not. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-nations-then-the-usa-have-sovern-nations-inside-them/172943/5 "2003-05-04T01:03:38Z")
Italy also has San Marino ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-nations-then-the-usa-have-sovern-nations-inside-them/172943/6 "2003-05-04T01:07:10Z")
Here’s a nice source for info on [enclaves](http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclave) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-nations-then-the-usa-have-sovern-nations-inside-them/172943/7 "2003-05-04T01:10:30Z")
Canada also has areas set aside for the First Peoples – the legal status of them is something a Canadian would have to speak about. FWIW, Greenland is an integral part of Denmark that is autonomous, and Aruba and the Netherlands Antilles are autonomous parts of the Kingdom of the Netherlands. Obviously, neither is an _enclave_ of the parent country in the way you’re speaking. While Lesotho is an enclave completely surrounded by South Africa, Swaziland is on the edge of the country, and also borders Mozambique. In addition to Vatican City, Italy also completely surrounds San Marino, and if you want to stretch a point, also has the Sovereign Military Order of Malta. Monaco is on the French Riviera coast but is surrounded by French territory on its entire landward border. Mount Athos is an autonomous republic on the tip of one of the three peninsulas running south from Chalcidice, likewise with seafront but landwardly surrounded by Greece. Officially the Soviet Union had any number of Autonomous Republics and Oblasts within it – though the degree of actual autonomy was about equivalent to Queen Elizabeth’s Prerogative Powers; I don’t know their status under Russia and the other former Soviet Republics now independent states. Prior to the formation of the United Arab Emirates, several of the shiekhdoms that went to make it up were enclaves, officially independent protectorates of the United Kingdom, within the larger ones. And there were any number of small local monarchies under the suzerainty of India and Nepal, most of which have “eroded” into normal parts of those countries. One that comes to mind is the Kingdom of Mustang. Over the years, several port cities have been officially autonomous under international supervision at various times, mostly as a result of disputes between neighboring nations as to which they belonged to. Among these are Tangier, Gdansk, Alexandretta (now Iskenderun, Turkey), and Trieste. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-nations-then-the-usa-have-sovern-nations-inside-them/172943/8 "2003-05-04T01:14:10Z")
[This](http://members.aol.com/marismits/geography.htm) is a nice site for geographic oddities around the world. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-nations-then-the-usa-have-sovern-nations-inside-them/172943/9 "2003-05-04T01:31:05Z")
San Marino, Swaziland, Lesotho, and The Vatican are not subordinate nations. They are actually independent countries whose citizens generally are citizens of that country and no other. The Native American tribes in the United States are treated essentially as something in between a state and the federal government and the members of those tribes are also citizens of the United States (except for the cases of the tribes with members in Canada, and thus those members are Canadian citizens). ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-nations-then-the-usa-have-sovern-nations-inside-them/172943/10 "2003-05-04T01:33:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kanicbird \* > \*\*Because the Indians (AKA native Americans) lost to the new Europian Americans we have created sovern Indian (or native American) nations where they can do their own thing and not pay taxes. Any other nations have such a policy? \*\* First, it is a myth that residents of Indian reservations do not pay taxes. They are not subject to the jurisdiction of the states they are within, having direct relationships with the Federal government, so they do not pay state income taxes, sales taxes or property taxes. They do, however, pay federal taxes just like everyone else. And any Indian who purchases goods or property outside the reservation will of course pay the requisite state taxes on those. Second, Indian reservations are not sovereign nations. They have a kind of limited sovereignty, in that they are granted a degree of autonomy from the federal and state governments. However, this autonomy is a matter of legislation (very partially based on earlier treaties established with some tribes), wheras the “dual sovereignty” of the states is codified in the Constitution. Reservations are still subject to federal laws and regulations. Indeed, because they are federal land, the Feds have a great deal more authority there than in state jurisdictions. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-nations-then-the-usa-have-sovern-nations-inside-them/172943/11 "2003-05-04T01:46:18Z")
Spain/france has catalina (sp?) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-nations-then-the-usa-have-sovern-nations-inside-them/172943/12 "2003-05-04T01:55:21Z")
Regions of Spain, including most especially Catalonia, have some degree of autonomy from the national government, dating back to the fall of the monarchy in 1931 (it was superseded by Franco, but reinstated when the monarchy was restored in the 1970s). Autonomy and full sovereignty are two distinct concepts, however, although I’ll leave it to a professional political scientist to explain the distinction more clearly than I can. ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-nations-then-the-usa-have-sovern-nations-inside-them/172943/13 "2003-05-04T03:44:12Z")
As **sailor** and **Monty** have already said, Indian tribes within the United States are not sovereign. The legal term for their status is “domestic dependent nations.” ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-nations-then-the-usa-have-sovern-nations-inside-them/172943/14 "2003-05-04T08:12:12Z")
Lobsang is probably thinking of Andorra which is co-ruled by France and Spain (sort of). ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-nations-then-the-usa-have-sovern-nations-inside-them/172943/15 "2003-05-04T10:23:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*Lobsang is probably thinking of Andorra which is co-ruled by France and Spain (sort of). \*\* Andorra is a sovereign country which, for complex historical reasons, has two heads of state – one the President of France and the other the bishop of Seo de Urgel in Spain. Even so, I’m sure **Lobsang** meant Catalonia, which has territory in both Spain and France. But as **Polycarp** said, it isn’t a sovereign country. Most of the countries mentioned so far are enclaves, which the OP wasn’t asking about. An example for South Africa would not, therefore, be the landlocked country of Lesotho, but the [Bophuthatswana](http://www.bartleby.com/65/bo/Bophutha.html) Bantustans that were created under the apartheid regime and abolished in 1994. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-nations-then-the-usa-have-sovern-nations-inside-them/172943/16 "2003-05-04T10:41:38Z")
AFAIK Catalonia only has territory in Spain and, in any case, is just one more autonomous region of the 17 or so which comprise Spain. There’s nothing special about it. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-nations-then-the-usa-have-sovern-nations-inside-them/172943/17 "2003-05-04T11:40:32Z")
The Languedoc-Roussillon region is often known as French Catalonia. It frequently tranferred between Spanish, French and Majorcan sovereignty for four centuries up to the Treaty of the Pyrénées in 1659. Since then it’s been part of France, but the locals still speak a dialect of Catalan, the red and gold Catalan flag flies alongside the French tricoleur, the local cuisine is distinctively “catalane” and there are plenty of cross-border cultural activities these days. There is even a small independence movement there (although not as strong as the Basque one). The regional capital is Perpignan, which is considered the second city of greater Catalonia after Barcelona. I found it hard to find a good site in English, but “roussillon”, “catalane” and “perpignan” are all good keywords if you speak French. It’s still not a sovereign country of course. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-nations-then-the-usa-have-sovern-nations-inside-them/172943/18 "2003-05-04T12:15:06Z")
As has been pointed out, the OP is misinformed and it is not clear what the question is. The Indians in the USA have a certain degree of autonomy but they are not sovereign. If we are looking for other instances of autonomy withing a state we can think if the Channel Islands or Gibraltar. The Channel Islands are pretty much independent except for defense and foreign affairs. Gibraltar is legally a colony but is pretty much self-governing. I assume the Falklans and other British dependencies are in similar situations. ---
**Author:** ![NoGoodNamesLeft](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NoGoodNamesLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoGoodNamesLeft)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-nations-then-the-usa-have-sovern-nations-inside-them/172943/19 "2003-05-04T12:23:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Canada also has areas set aside for the First Peoples …the French here are prtty much their own soverign nation…but I suppose that could be up for debate. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-nations-then-the-usa-have-sovern-nations-inside-them/172943/20 "2003-05-04T13:45:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan \* > \*\*[This](http://members.aol.com/marismits/geography.htm) is a nice site for geographic oddities around the world. \*\* It mentions plenty of nations that are said to have enclaves in other nations. IIRC an enclave is an area that is surrounded totally by a country but belongs to another country to which it has no geographical link (there’s certainly a less cumbersome definition for this, but you get the general idea). Right? If so, why does the site list “Five enclaves in Belgium, One enclave in Switzerland” for Germany? I’ve never heard of anything like this before. anyone can enlighten me on this? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-other-nations-then-the-usa-have-sovern-nations-inside-them/172943.md?page=2)