# Any reason we can't have compulsory voting in the UK? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2016, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-reason-we-cant-have-compulsory-voting-in-the-uk/758813 "2016-06-30T18:39:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-reason-we-cant-have-compulsory-voting-in-the-uk/758813/41 "2016-07-19T16:09:02Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > I’d say a 50 quid fine and/or 10 hours picking up litter ought to do it. So… If Citizen A doesn’t vote, doesn’t pay the fine and/or doesn’t turn up for Community Service, what’s the next step? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-reason-we-cant-have-compulsory-voting-in-the-uk/758813/42 "2016-07-19T20:17:02Z")
Keep it simple, just bill the fine to their tax account to start with. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-reason-we-cant-have-compulsory-voting-in-the-uk/758813/43 "2016-07-19T20:41:26Z")
So, if Citizen A pays his tax minus the fine, what next? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-reason-we-cant-have-compulsory-voting-in-the-uk/758813/44 "2016-07-19T20:52:50Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > So, if Citizen A pays his tax minus the fine, what next? What is the normal penalty and procedure for refusal to pay taxes? ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-reason-we-cant-have-compulsory-voting-in-the-uk/758813/45 "2016-07-19T21:16:03Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > What is the normal penalty and procedure for refusal to pay taxes? They send you letters. You ignore them. And, unless it’s a decent amount of money, they give up. Of course, they might like to make examples of people, as they did when Thatcher introduced the Poll Tax as she famously once called it. So what if Citizen A gets made an example of and serves his thirty days for refusing to pay the fine, but the fine still stands. What next? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-reason-we-cant-have-compulsory-voting-in-the-uk/758813/46 "2016-07-19T21:16:26Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Keep it simple, just bill the fine to their tax account to start with. That involves the employer for a (very?) large proportion of UK taxpayers. If your income is purely a single wage or salary, then your income tax is done under Pay As You Earn, and comes off at source, and is reflected in your wage slip. Basically, the employer handles it. So it’s not as simple as all that, although there’s been a couple of things bolted onto PAYE over the years - student loan repayments and council tax garnishments spring to mind. It’s not just one entity that needs to make the change, but many thousands, so it isn’t all that simple really. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-reason-we-cant-have-compulsory-voting-in-the-uk/758813/47 "2016-07-19T21:30:55Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > That involves the employer for a (very?) large proportion of UK taxpayers. If your income is purely a single wage or salary, then your income tax is done under Pay As You Earn, and comes off at source, and is reflected in your wage slip. Basically, the employer handles it. So it’s not as simple as all that, although there’s been a couple of things bolted onto PAYE over the years - student loan repayments and council tax garnishments spring to mind. It’s not just one entity that needs to make the change, but many thousands, so it isn’t all that simple really. Most Americans have estimated payments deducted from paychecks as well. Is there no British equivalent to a Social Security number? Surely the government must have a process for tracking who owes what, independent of any particular employers once raw income has been reported. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-reason-we-cant-have-compulsory-voting-in-the-uk/758813/48 "2016-07-19T22:24:43Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Surely the government must have a process for tracking who owes what, independent of any particular employers once raw income has been reported. It depends on your definition of “owe”. If a government, whether democratically elected or not, decided to impose a fine for not voting, IMO, I wouldn’t owe them the money. It’s not for them to decide whether I choose to vote any more than they should decide what I eat for breakfast. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-reason-we-cant-have-compulsory-voting-in-the-uk/758813/49 "2016-07-19T22:37:17Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > I’d say a 50 quid fine and/or 10 hours picking up litter ought to do it. That sounds really punitive. Here in America, we are much kinder to our voters. Heck, there are places like Chicago where if a voter is unable to make it to the polling place, an attentive political party staffer will cast his vote for him. Such courtesy is even extended to dead people sometimes. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-reason-we-cant-have-compulsory-voting-in-the-uk/758813/50 "2016-07-19T23:03:13Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > Wouldn’t apply. The UK doesn’t have Preference voting. Does apply. Do you really want to fore ill informed people to vote? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-reason-we-cant-have-compulsory-voting-in-the-uk/758813/51 "2016-07-20T00:34:32Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > It depends on your definition of “owe”. If a government, whether democratically elected or not, decided to impose a fine for not voting, IMO, I wouldn’t owe them the money. It’s not for them to decide whether I choose to vote any more than they should decide what I eat for breakfast. Sure, sure. Just like it’s not for them to decide whether you choose to pay part of the army’s payroll, right? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-reason-we-cant-have-compulsory-voting-in-the-uk/758813/52 "2016-07-20T02:36:48Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > So… If Citizen A doesn’t vote, doesn’t pay the fine and/or doesn’t turn up for Community Service, what’s the next step? The way it works in Australia (where we have compulsory voting) if you don’t turn up at a polling booth (or cast a vote in some other way) they send you a notice inviting you to offer a “valid and sufficient reason” (“I was in a coma”) or pay a fine. If you offer a reason and they accept it, that’s an end of the matter. If they reject your reason, or fail to respond at all, they charge you and haul you into court. You can defend yourself in court in the usual way. If you’re convicted, the court will impose a fine (usually higher than the administrative penalty you were first invited to pay) and if you don’t pay _that_, there’s the same range of enforcement mechanisms as there would be for any fine imposed on conviction of an offence. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-reason-we-cant-have-compulsory-voting-in-the-uk/758813/53 "2016-07-20T18:14:59Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Sure, sure. Just like it’s not for them to decide whether you choose to pay part of the army’s payroll, right? Do you not understand the difference between a fine and a tax? ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-reason-we-cant-have-compulsory-voting-in-the-uk/758813/54 "2016-07-20T19:29:24Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > The way it works in Australia (where we have compulsory voting) if you don’t turn up at a polling booth (or cast a vote in some other way) they send you a notice inviting you to offer a “valid and sufficient reason” (“I was in a coma”) or pay a fine. If you offer a reason and they accept it, that’s an end of the matter. If they reject your reason, or fail to respond at all, they charge you and haul you into court. You can defend yourself in court in the usual way. If you’re convicted, the court will impose a fine (usually higher than the administrative penalty you were first invited to pay) and if you don’t pay _that_, there’s the same range of enforcement mechanisms as there would be for any fine imposed on conviction of an offence. So, what if 2% of the public thought “Sod that”, didn’t pay the fines, went to court, didn’t pay the fine or the penalty? Decent, otherwise law abiding working taxpaying citizens? Lock 'em all up? If you’ve got a choice between two self important muppets who threaten to imprison you if don’t even turn up to write “Bollocks” on the the ballot paper, is imprisoning people for not doing so the sign of a free society? ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-reason-we-cant-have-compulsory-voting-in-the-uk/758813/55 "2016-07-20T20:20:09Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > So, what if 2% of the public thought “Sod that”, didn’t pay the fines, went to court, didn’t pay the fine or the penalty? Decent, otherwise law abiding working taxpaying citizens? Lock 'em all up? That happens all the time with some people with traffic/parking fines. (Except that they usually don’t bother to show up in court.) What the government does is jet a judgement against them, for the amount of the fine, + penalty, + court costs, + collections fee, etc. Then the government seizes some of their assets to collect that amount. Usually the easiest way is to seize some or all of their income tax refund to cover this. There’s already a system set up to do this currently. (It’s mostly used against deadbeat parents who owe child support.) After that, they will seize assets like any money in a bank, any car registered in your name, or putting liens against any property that you own. (But this is usually done only for bigger debts than traffic or parking tickets.) This can be hard to do for many of the people who get such fines; they live such marginal lives that collecting can be hard. Their work is often undocumented, so they have little income tax reported, they don’t have bank accounts, don’t own property or even have a stable address, and their cars are often junkers not worth seizing & selling. But it might be easier for the people you mention – “Decent, otherwise law abiding working taxpaying citizens”. It would be much easier for the government to enforce collection against them. Of course, you mention 2% of the public doing this. That is a much number than the typical traffic/parking scofflaws. When that many people object to a law, elected officials usually look at reconsidering it. Because they are worried about losing votes from unhappy citizens. But these are people refusing to vote – what elected official would care much about them? ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-reason-we-cant-have-compulsory-voting-in-the-uk/758813/56 "2016-07-20T21:34:49Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > But these are people refusing to vote – what elected official would care much about them? True… but for their egos. IMHO, most politicians have this comfort blanket of thinking that people who vote for them, vote for them because they like them and support them. Sooo… I’d expect all electoral advertising campaigns to promote the positive qualities of their candidate, rather than badmouthing the opposing candidate. In other words: “Vote for me, I’m not as shite as the other candidate”. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-reason-we-cant-have-compulsory-voting-in-the-uk/758813/57 "2016-07-21T01:01:39Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > So, what if 2% of the public thought “Sod that”, didn’t pay the fines, went to court, didn’t pay the fine or the penalty? Decent, otherwise law abiding working taxpaying citizens? Lock 'em all up? Lots of fines are imposed by courts on people who have convicted of one offence, but are otherwise “law abiding working taxpaying citizens”. Indeed, very often the rationale for imposing a fine rather than any more severe sanction is that this is a first offence. Nothing unusual there. > [@mascaroni](#): > > If you’ve got a choice between two self important muppets who threaten to imprison you if don’t even turn up to write “Bollocks” on the the ballot paper, is imprisoning people for not doing so the sign of a free society? Oh, I’m with you there. I’m not a fan of compulsory voting. I’m just explaining how it works in practice. ---
**Author:** ![Commodore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@Commodore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commodore)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-reason-we-cant-have-compulsory-voting-in-the-uk/758813/58 "2016-07-21T04:24:45Z")
In Australia if the vote is close then they issue fines for not voting, but if one party wins by a majority they don’t bother, I think it’s got to do with the party’s start getting shitty and start using the law then. As a rule all people of a nation should vote as it’s your democratic right in progress and of a healthy nation, but sadly there are people who don’t want to do there duty as a responsible adult, you get that type of derelict that will not do jury duty or help the nation in any way, as they are just pond life happy to be feeding of others, a self absorbed glutton layabout most likely on drugs and or handouts and sadly such people claim it as there rights. Funny it’s always the left wing mob that claims such BS moronic rights. If a person has citizenship you have rights to be a upstanding responsible person and if not, show them the door, f off and go sponge off others, fork it of walk it no one rides for free. The criminally insane can go walk the plank. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-reason-we-cant-have-compulsory-voting-in-the-uk/758813/59 "2016-07-21T15:08:12Z")
> [@Commodore](#): > > …As a rule all people of a nation should vote as it’s your democratic right… Your democratic right to be forced to do something against your will? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-reason-we-cant-have-compulsory-voting-in-the-uk/758813/60 "2016-07-21T21:14:20Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > Do you not understand the difference between a fine and a tax? I am suggesting that it could be incorporated into the tax collection system, as is already done with myriad other fines and legal judgements, as described above. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-reason-we-cant-have-compulsory-voting-in-the-uk/758813.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-reason-we-cant-have-compulsory-voting-in-the-uk/758813.md?page=4)