Any Shakespeare deniers on this board?

Enterprise, I’ll add my thanks to those Fuzzy_Wuzzy posted.

Though quite interested in Shakespeare, I’ve always tended to avoid wading into either books of the type Mark Anderson wrote, or into Internet discussions in which anti-Stratfordians prevail. I realize now that the distaste I feel is of the same character as is the aversion I feel to reading/discussing any conspiracy-theory material.

The lack of intelligence–as with the misinterpretations of the “To Our English Terence” poem that you point out–is just…depressing.

Have you read Anderson’s book? There are many websites arguing for Oxford; how many have you read?

Ah! I thought so. You and many other Dopers get your knowledge of Oxfordian arguments by reading … articles or discussions debunking Oxfordians. :smiley:

Is it five, or just four, of the present nine on SCOTUS that are on record as finding a strong case for Oxford. Do they also lack intelligence?

Either way, the tone of this sort of response reminds me why I won’t bother correcting misconceptions in this thread.

The malady of relying on debunkers rather than original sources for understanding “conspiracy” theories is pervasive at SDMB. It even affects our Leader. Consider his mention of Graham Hancock’s theory in What happened to the Ark of the Covenant?:

[QUOTE=Cecil Adams]
… Graham Hancock wrote a book called SIGN AND SEAL, claiming the Ark is in a small church out in the desert in Ethiopia. He says the Ark was actually stolen by Solomon’s outcast son, carried to Ethiopia, and kept there secretly by a Judaic cult.
[/QUOTE]

One thing is very clear about Cecil Adams or whoever wrote that summary – He never read Sign and Seal and is totally ignorant about Hancock’s reconstruction. I pointed this out in the relevant thread, getting zero response.

Actually, that’s fine with me. Web-sites, articles, discussions, they’re all part of the debate. I get my knowledge from having read only five books on the topic (two Oxfordianists, three conventionalists.)

All I ask is that the debate be evidence-based. Tell me why I should hold one view or the other. One of the books I read (I do not recall the title or author) was in response to Joe Sobran’s “Alias Shakespeare,” and it was, unfortunately, nothing but a sneer. It was heavy on, “Look how stupid this is” and very light on real evidence.

Anderson’s book is, at least, honest. He does make a lot of assumptions. He says things like, “It is reasonable to assume…” or “This person might have done xyz.” But he makes his assumptions clear. He doesn’t over-present his case by saying “This is the case,” or “This person did xyz.” He also openly presents arguments against his main proposition, and tries to answer it.

Please, anyone, point me to a good, evidence-based rebuttal. Book, essay, web-site, even a YouTube video. I want to read more on the subject. I just don’t want to be called an idiot. (I have a brother-in-law for that!)

I’ve worked my way through Anderson’s introduction, and am still not impressed. Full disclosure: I’ve no doubt the William Shakespeare, who was born and died in Stratford upon Avon, wrote the plays ascribed to him. I’m not open to other arguments easily. And I’m not impressed by what I have read of Anderson so far. But I’ll give it my best fair shot. Apologies for the length.

Going through the introduction chronologically.

Anderson begins by drawing attention to the many people with doubts about Shakespeare’s authorship, the usual suspects: Twain, James, Freud, etc. He already here makes some startling misreadings, suggesting that John Adams, visiting Stratford, “echoed a growing skepticism of the validity of the Shakespeare story,” when Adams writes “There is nothing preserved of this great genius which is worth knowing. Nothing which might inform us what education, what company, what accident, turned his mind to letters and the drama.” Now, it seems rather clear to me that Adams harbors no doubts, but regrets that there is no more personal information available? But we might let that slide as minor. Anderson’s major point is, of course, that “De Vere added to and revised his early courtly masques and interludes, eventually transforming them into the plays and poems published under the byline ‘William Shakespeare’”. It bears pointing out that anybody familiar with the conception of courtly “masques and interludes” would recognize that “transforming” them into a (performable!) play is a faintly ridiculous proposition—both thematically as well as from a production point of view; it would be much easier to write anew from scratch, and I’m not sure why Anderson feels he needs this movement, as there is clearly no evidence for it. Maybe we’ll find out later.

Anderson goes on to suggest that “every corner of the Shakespeare canon has now been found to contain snippets or passages from de Vere’s life and times” (n.b.: “and times”?? I suppose Shakespeare’s times were ALSO de Vere’s, so that’s neither here nor there really?), and then goes on (rather hilariously, to be frank) to enumerate some, and I’m quoting:

“De Vere’s first marriage produced three daughters who inherited their alienated father’s family seat while he was still alive (King Lear). He had a close but rocky relationship with Queen Elizabeth—whom he portrayed variously as the witty and charming OLIVIA (Twelfth Night), the powerful vixen CLEOPATRA, the cloying VENUS, and the compromised CRESSIDE. De Vere’s father-in-law was the original for PETRUCHIO; de Vere’s sister the model for PETRUCHIO’s KATE; his first wife for OPHELIA, DESDEMONA, and HERO (among many others); de Vere’s second wife for PORTIA; his eldest daughter for MIRANDA; her husband for MIRANDA’s FERDINAND.”

Now, I’m not quite sure how de Vere’s wife must have been like to be both Ophelia and Desdemona and Hero “and many others,” except perhaps schizophrenic; but there is no evidence yet for any of these parallels, and that’s entirely without commenting on why there should not be similar parallels in anybody else’s lives, or indeed (as I don’t tire of repeating) why Oxford should possibly WANT to have those parallels in there.

Anderson claims that the name Shake-speare is giving away the game. Now, we’ll let slide the very idea that spelling anything (the hyphen is important) in Elizabethan England was a good way of drawing attention, because people just about spelled anything in any way imaginable. But Anderson suggests that the hyphenated spelling indicates to the reader that this is a pseudonym, because other clear pseudonyms used hyphens: “Martin Mar-prelate,” “Cuthberg Curry-knave,” and Tom Tell-truth,” and therefore William Shake-speare would have been immediately relatable to as a pseudonym, because “the goddes Athena—divine protectress of learning and the art–…at birth…is said to have shaken her spear.” Now, I’m not quite sure how much criticism here is really necessary. First up, I’m puzzled by the sheer incoherence of the argument—indeed, about precisely what the argument is. The first three names are, first, alliterative, and WS’s isn’t; second, obvious in their allusions, and WS’s isn’t; and finally and most puzzlingly, Anderson admits the existence of the actor William Shakespeare: so it’s a great pseudonym with brilliant allusiveness that just so happens ALSO to be the name of the guy who works as Oxford’s front?! I’m genuinely puzzled here.

Anderson critizes readings of Greene’s Groatsworth of Wit, suggesting that the lines:

“Yes, trust them not, for there is an upstart crow, beautified with our feathers, that, with his Tygers heart wrapt in a Players hide, supposes he is as well able to bumbast out a blanke verse as the best of you; and being an absolute Johannes Factotum, is in his owne conceit the onely Shake-scene in a countrie.”

imply a number of things: first, that the “crow” reference implies that Shakespeare is “disguis[ing himself] in the plumage of other[s]”—which is very much a standard reading given that the sentence spells it out I think, and also a standard attack by Greene, who, it bears pointing out, really doesn’t like Shakespeare (yet Anderson is taking him at his, complicated, word). Second, that Johannees Factotum meant “in sixteenth-century usage…a braggart and vainglorious dilettante”. The source for this is the OED. Anderson is being at least disingenuous here: the OED offers just one 16th century example for “Johannes factotum”—Greene—and a great number of possible understandings for factotum, most of which are: “a person who can do many things,” “a person who meddles with everything,” “a person in charge of everything”, “a thing that does all kinds of things”. And, what’s more, at least my online access to the OED doesn’t actually GIVE the “1c” entry for factotum which Anderson cites (via D. Allen Carroll’s scholarly edition of Greene); even if that entry existed, it’s clear that it is not the only possible 16th century meaning. A similar game is played with the word “suppose,” which Anderson would have you believe is “often used” by Elizabethans to mean “to feign, pretend; occasionally, to forge”. I stress here the Anderson quote “often”: the OED says a) it’s “rare”, b) doesn’t actually offer an Elizabethan citation for the usage (except, possibly, this line from 1566: “The maide…was the doughter of his owne bondwoman, who afterwardes beeyng stolen awaie, was caried to the house of Virginius, and supposed to bee his childe”; but here I think the OED errs in analysis, as it’s perfectly possible to say “suppose” here means, essentially “everybody supposed her to be Virginius’s child”). It’s deception, pure and simple.

Anderson offers a short discussion of the “Our English Terence” line from John Davies’s 1611 pamphlet. He argues that “many in the sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries believed” Terence to be “a front man for one or more Roman aristocratic playwrights”. His sources are the Encyclopedia Britannica (which does point out the allegation, but not when it flourished, and is clear that it is unsubstantiated) and Roger Ascham’s The Scholemaster, a textbook of sorts from 1570. Ascham indeed claims that it is “well known” that Scipio wrote some of Terence’s plays. So far, so good. However, it bears pointing out that the conclusion which Anderson draws is (customarily) radical, and it bears spelling out: because John Davies compared Shakespeare to a playwright suspected by one textbook to have been a front for an aristocrat, therefore “the author Shake-speare was someone else altogether.” You must of course decide for yourself if this is convincing, but I would suggest that, even if we accept the Terence-as-fraud reading (which is unsupported by the rest of the poem, of course, a poem which we have already seen Anderson misread rather badly), at most we might argue that John Davies thought Shakespeare a fraud, not that Shakespeare was one. Check out the linked website for more info on this; it does a very good job and points out especially all the references to Terence that Anderson is ignoring. And that’s the rub: he doesn’t just not know them, he is actively ignoring them—the one in Meres, for example, which is probably the most famous Shakespeare reference of all.

Anderson also talks about the problematic (for Oxfordians) Stratford monument, which clearly relates Shakespeare the author and Shakespeare the resident of Stratford (he will, apparently, discuss this in more detail later), and admits that this seems like good evidence. However, he declares (because, apparently, it needs explaining: I’m not quite sure WHY it would need explaining, because I thought that the Shakespeare-as-front thing was desired, and therefore why not let the Stratfordians erect a monument to the guy they thought was Shakespeare?) that we must understand the monuments erection in conjunction with a “brutal campaign” waged by de Vere’s children at James I’s court at the time. “This book argues de Vere’s children and in-laws used the works of Shake-speare as part of a propaganda war […]—and that the Stratford monument and publication of the Folio constituted a last-ditch maneuver to preserve de Vere’s literary legacy, even if it meant burying his identity.” This is rather byzantine, but I guess the book will clear it up later.

I’m jumping into the highlights here, because the rest is pretty much standard fare: no writing survives of Shakespeare, who knows if he ever went to school in the first place, we don’t know about his travels, etc. (“The plays and poems reveal a well-travelled world citizen [sic!!]—one who had an intimate familiarity with Italian and French culture unattainbale at second hand.”), suspiciously didn’t mention any books in his will, and so on.

Of course. What I object to are people who try to understand the pro-Oxford case solely by reading Oxford debunkers!

When I became interested in the question, the first book I bought was Ian Wilson’s “Stratfordian” biography of Shakespeare – was that the purchase of a “conspiracy nut” eager to be deluded? Whatever he wasn’t, Oxford certainly was an important figure in the Elizabethan theatrical world but he is dealt with only sneeringly by Wilson; indeed most of the very few sentences Wilsons spends on Oxford describe a fart he allegedly made in Her Majesty’s presence. It’s hard to take “anti-Oxfordians” seriously when that’s their level of debate.

It’s annoying to try to read these “Authorship controversy” threads at SDMB. There are a few scholars here from whom I’d like to learn on the topic, but they’re drowned out by posters who are obviously ignorant on the topic … and the greater their ignorance the greater their stridency.

Trinopus, I’m trying to get through Anderson at the moment, but I have to confess that it’s very hard going precisely because Anderson is not particularly honest. He very clearly misrepresents the both the Shakespearian positions as well as the immense, and open, intellectual endeavor that has gone into elucidating the “case for Shakespeare,” as it were. I guess I’ll have occasion to say something more about that as my reading goes on.

I know this post was not aimed at me but your assuming many of us haven’t read the source material. I’ll admit having not read Anderson’s book. However, I have watched him interviewed. I am familiar with some of his arguments, and not just his arguments but others of his ilk. I started out as an anti-Stratfordian, or rather, I was briefly swayed by them when I first became interested in the issue. I have watched and read a number of Anderson type books and documentaries. Many of us are fairly well versed in the anti-Stratfordian case. Some of the specifics may not be known to us, but the general thrust of their arguments are.

Here’s the link relating to Oxford’s bible and the works of Shakespeare I promised earlier:

http://shakespeareauthorship.com/ox5.html

Enterprise, thanks again for the updates on Anderson’s book. Im reading your posts, but dont have much to add to them at the moment; that is apart from the characters in the Plays resembling characters from De Vere’s own life. It’s hard to place too much seriousness to this argument when many of these characters were found in the original sources of Shakespeare’s works. It’s not impossible to theorise that the author was attracted to these sources/characters precisely because they imitated characters in his or her own life. But it should always be remembered that most of these characters were already in existence in the sources.The author had to include them no matter who they resembled. A case in point may be Hamlet. Hamlet is either an intimate portrayal of the author’s life, a well crafted fictional biography, or, it’s the least original Play in the Shakespeare canon, a Play which already had a template(and characters) the author was forced to borrow from heavily. Literary practices of the period point to it being the latter case. Improving original works was seen as a mark of talent. Today such practices are frowned upon. In 1600’s England it was the ultimate measure of a writers’ wit.

Some of them do, yes. Others have good minds.

[quote=“Trinopus, post:183, topic:701197”]

All I ask is that the debate be evidence-based. /QUOTE]

^ This. Support claims with specifics–that’s what will convince.

It doesn’t matter who reads what; what matters (see above) is evidence.

For example, as has been mentioned in this thread: Oxford died in 1604; the ship Sea-Venture was wrecked in 1609; and *The Tempest *was first performed in 1611–and that play contains not only specific situations but numerous verbal parallels with the 1610 account of the wreck written by William Strachey (and accessible to William Shakespeare through their mutual connection to the Virginia Company).

A few of the dozens of instances of parallels:

From David Kathman’s evidence-based discussion of the authorship question at Dating *The Tempest*

(Apologies if that’s been linked to earlier.)

This sort of thing is far more convincing than is, for instance, an appeal from authority (‘four or five of present Supreme Court justices question Shakespeare’s authorship’ and the like).

Not his only use of “bear” in that play, however. :smiley:

True; even people who don’t know much about Shakespeare are familiar with that stage direction.:slight_smile:

This seems to be the source of the list of Supreme Court justices who question the authorship of Shakespeare’s work. According to the article, there were two active justices who believed that de Vere wrote the plays. As Stevens is retired, that just leaves one of the nine current justices. Scalia. And apparently his wife makes fun of him for it.

I can accept all of this as having weight. Can you accept it when Anderson does exactly the same thing? He spots parallels, and highlights them.

It wouldn’t be fair for you to use this technique without permitting Anderson to use it.

The parallels don’t prove anything on their own: they’re suggestive. I believe that’s all Anderson has: a whole lot of interesting parallels, of exactly the type you provide.

If I am to find your parallels indicative, why am I not to find Anderson’s so also?

I challenge your assertion on two levels.

First, that commoners are simple. They’re intelligent and live in a complex world. They’re no less adapted to their world than aristocrats are to theirs. The nature of the details differ, not the number of them.

Second, that aristocrats see commoners as they are naturally. I would wager that most commoners behave quite differently in front of aristocrats, even ones posing as commoners. (I would wager that most commoners have a large number of different ways of being, depending on circumstances: in the home, in the field, in the pub, at a hanging, etc.)

However, I bet we have a lot more written material about aristocrats than about commoners, so we’d be far more likely to spot a flaw about them.

It’s a lot easier for a nobleman to obtain access to commoners than for commoners to obtain access to nobles.

A noble can “go slumming” and listen in at the village inn, to get a feel for how commoners talk. A commoner would have more trouble listening to nobles, to get a sense of their dialogue.

(I actually think this is a very trivial problem, and I would not put much weight on it in the playwrighting debate. A commoner playwright would have fairly easy access to nobles’ servants, and could pick up a hell of a lot from them.)

Trinopus, did you read my longish review of the evidence which Anderson provides in the introduction to his volume, and would you care to comment? In short, you should not find Anderson’s parallels indicative because Anderson’s track record so far is one of obfuscation and misreading; Fuzzy_wuzzy provided a very good website taking on the de Vere Bible issue, showing that it’s true for even this mainstay of Anderson’s argument.

Or, more to the point: I’m not hugely convinced myself by the Strachey parallels in The Tempest, but what I understand is that these parallels are precisely that only: suggestive; so, by all means, find de Vere parallels suggestive as well. Weigh both suggestive parallels; but then you must realize (and I’d be happy to help with that realization, if you’d point out what you need) that the *entire *case for de Vere rests on suggestive parallels, while the case for Shakespeare rests on clear evidence, evidence of the sort that requires the de Vere side to claim a complex conspiracy to dismiss. Yes, you can always poke at William Shakespeare, and yes, sometimes you will not get definitive answers (“Was Shakespeare ever in Italy? How could he have written about Italy then? De Vere WAS in Italy.”)

But it’s necessary to understand that the case for Shakespeare does not rest on the individual things you can poke at, it rests on the mass of affirmative evidence that the man, William Shakespeare, born in Stratford upon Avon, who became an actor in London, a poet, and a playwright, a part-owner of his company, and later retired to Stratford, where he died in 1616, was the sole author of most and a co-author in several others of his plays, and never cooperated in any way with Edward de Vere. This is the default assumption, because it rests on a hundred years of extremely solid, and complicated, literary historical research, not because (as Anderson avers) there’s a clique who needs Shakespeare to be the author. [And this, incidentally, is also why it’s ridiculous to go about shouting loudly “but four Supreme Court justices think he’s not the author!!” That’s why John Stevens is an excellent lawyer, and James Shapiro is an excellent literary historian: they are different professions; I wouldn’t want Shapiro’s take on Roe vs. Wade, and I don’t want Stevens’s on Shakespeare; it’s demeaning of my profession].

Also, most of Shakespeare’s depictions of nobles owe a lot more to other playwrights than they do to the real thing. With the possible exception of Henry VIII (written very late in Shakespeare’s career, at a time when he would have had actual experience of courtly protocol), nothing in Shakespeare’s plays bears a very close resemblance to the actual world of Renaissance nobility; his kings and noblemen wander around in disguise, have people suddenly burst in on them, commit their own murders in person, get exiled and camp out in the wilderness, and generally behave in all kinds of un-courtly and undignified ways. It’s a “good enough” depiction of aristocratic life from a stage point of view, and it’s in line with other stage depictions from the period, but it’s not in any way realistic.

good point.

Jim Jarmusch’s Only Lovers Left Alive stars Tom Hiddleston & Tilda Swinton as two beautiful, immortal vampires. John Hurt plays their vampire mentor–Kit Marlowe. Who continues to be upset that Shakespeare got credit for all his work. Of course, the movie isn’t a scholarly treatise on the subject. It’s definitely Romantic–with touches of wry humor.

Say that you write a book. It can be on any subject that has a “controversy.” You pick one side. You gather all the facts you can find. You add to it extrapolations off those facts, suppositions, maybes, perhapses, ifs. You create scenarios. You provide excuses. You worship coincidences. You make the best case for your subject while completely ignoring anything and everything that might undermine your argument or cause readers’ minds to slip away from nodding agreement for even one second.

If you are even a moderately competent writer, what possible subject *couldn’t *you make convincing going that route? That Lee Harvey Oswald didn’t kill Kennedy? That the moon landing was a hoax? That Obama was born in Kenya? That aliens gave us all our technology? That the Queen of England is part of a race of lizard people?

This is not scholarship. There are not two sides to every issue. You have an entire profession, with the tiniest handful of exceptions, on one side, using all their titanic and varied knowledge and approaches. The other side has none of this. And this is apparent from the moment you start reading that book. Why is that book not instantly dismissible? What distinguishes it from all other Conspiracy Theories? One you recognize the type of faulty thinking, identical in every case, you know it all, from start to inevitable false ending.

I recently said in another thread that all CTers are similar in that they must embrace contradictions in their arguments. The one in this argument is a doozy. That Oxford wrote the plays that were attributed to Shakespeare was an open secret throughout the theatrical, noble, educated, and hip classes, alluded to by everyone who wrote about the subject, but always in code, at once extremely clever and well hidden and yet obvious to any in the know. At the same time, nobody ever said this in public. Not after Oxford died. Not after Shakespeare died. Not to show off their superior knowledge and wit. Not when the secret-holder was on his deathbed. Not in secret diaries meant never to be read. Not even when they had enormous incentive to hurt one or the other, who both made numerous enemies over their lifetimes. On the contrary, for decades, even centuries, all acclaimed Shakespeare as Shakespeare and forget about Oxford - even when others, Bacon, Marlowe, Derby, were held up as the real Shakespeare denying Oxford his due.

That contradiction is unbreachable. Because all CTs are identical, one can find the same contradiction in others. Everyone knew that the moon-landing was a hoax, even Russia. But Russia had enormous incentive to take down their mortal enemy. Why didn’t they? That answer would be worth a million odd pixels on fourth generations photographs but no reasonable one is ever forthcoming.

I’ve said that CTs are dismissible out of hand. They are. I’ve said that this makes CTers furious. They are. It can’t be helped, though. Whenever they put forth their arguments, they are beaten down over and over and over. Yet one more document on their side, making the same rejected arguments, will buck them up: off they hie, trumpets blaring.

The entire academic world with specialties in these subjects support the fact of Shakespeare just as the entire academic world with specialties in their subject support the moon landing. (With the inevitable one or two crackpots: academics are human.) A few suggestions - your word - cannot possibly be taken seriously against the decades, now centuries, of Shakespeare scholarship into a myriad of facets of the Elizabethan world. Especially since the same technique can be used to “prove” cases for others than your favored candidate. If suggestions can be used for one, then they can be used for all.

You might as well be arguing god against an atheist. “I disbelieve in all gods,” the atheist says. “I agree,” you say, “except of course for my god who is real when none of the rest are. Here, see all my suggestions for my god’s reality.” “But,” the atheist says, “you can make that case for any other religion’s god. Why should I believe in your particular one? None of them are real.” “Read my book,” you reply. “You can’t possibly dismiss it out of hand.” “Yes,” the atheist says. “I can. I do.” The difference is that believers outnumber atheists, but the principle is identical. If you have faith, all things become possible. You cannot logic your way to faith, as the old saying goes. Outside established religion, faith turns into Conspiracy Theory. Once identified, a CT argument never can be turned into truth.