# Any sounds in other languages that can't be distinguished in English? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 6, 2013, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481 "2013-08-06T09:36:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/101 "2013-08-07T13:16:54Z")
Extrapolating from what **TokyoBayer** wrote, a Westerner will hear the unaspirated unvoiced consonant midway between D and T as either a D or a T _and possibly D listening to one speaker and T listening to another_. I’ll bet some foreigners are confused at first that Thai seems to have two words for ‘eye’: /da/ and /ta/. 🆒 Similarly for the consonant midway between B and P. (In standard transcription, /d/, /th/, /b/, /ph/ are used for the English phonemes with /t/ and /p/ for the intermediate forms. One once-popular text uses, less confusingly(?), /d/, /t/, /b/, /p/ for the English phonemes and /dt/, /bp/ for Thai’s intermediate forms. Thai also has an unvoiced unaspirated velar related to G and K; it causes less trouble since Thai lacks the voiced velar (G). Because it has extremely simple grammar and an easy-lo-learn basic vocabulary, many foreigners become fairly proficient at Thai without any formal training or textbook. I’ve talked to at least two fluent foreigners _who didn’t realize Thai even had the intermediate forms /dt/ and /bp/_ ! :smack: BTW, educated Bangkok Thais distinguishes R and L, but these consonants seem to be allophonic for many in rural Central Thailand. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/102 "2013-08-07T14:25:45Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > That sounds don’t exist in English doesn’t mean they’ll cause trouble. And the vowels you mention, except /u/, all occur, more-or-less, in English. I think the troublesomest French vowel is /ai/ which is, roughly, midway between /é/ and /è/. Nitpick: the nasals _exist_ in English – I’m forgetting at the moment, but there are plenty of situations where various English speakers use them – but they’re not _phonemic_ in English, so we’re not aware of them. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/103 "2013-08-08T02:20:41Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > ^ETA: At least to my knowledge. I wouldn’t have thought that aspiration would make an English speaker perceive a voiceless bilabial stop as a “b” instead of a “p,” but I may be wrong. I’ll see if I can find the book. As I said, this is what I read, but I’m not 100% certain it was aspiration or voicing which they tested. However the research done by mixing the “b” and “p” sounds and then seeing where natives would hear the cutoff. Natives from one language would hear the shift at a different location. I’ve also read about research if children who spoke a particular language could distinguish sounds which the adults could not distinguish. A classic example is the English “l” and “r” which Japanese adults cannot hear the difference without explicit training. Mandarin has a number of sounds which aren’t in English, and not just the tones. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/104 "2013-08-08T06:50:48Z")
> [@Moris](#): > > It’s a difference between “choon” and “tune”, or if you prefer, between “gotcha” and “got ya”. However, as a native Croatian speaker, I’d say there are at least four “degrees of softness”, depending on a region and a dialect. Well, my ex’s dialect must have been at the extreme end because I definitely never heard that difference in the way he said it. But thanks for putting it in a way I can finally understand! ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/105 "2013-08-08T09:12:47Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > [The Reader’s review](http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/Location?oid=1023546) suggests “EN-yay”…agree? Is that a pronunciation of the letter, or the name of the letter, as “double-yew” is the name of “w”? > [@JKellyMap](#): > > Yes. At least in Latin America, the letter itself is called “en-yay.” eNYAY, if anything,… the consonant is part of the second sillable! ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/106 "2013-08-08T09:55:30Z")
Maybe “rolling R’s”: > **[Voiced dental, alveolar and postalveolar trills](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_trill)** > > The voiced alveolar trill is a type of consonantal sound used in some spoken languages. The symbol in the International Phonetic Alphabet that represents dental, alveolar, and postalveolar trills is ⟨r⟩, and the equivalent X-SAMPA symbol is r. It is commonly called the rolled R, rolling R, or trilled R. Quite often, ⟨r⟩ is used in phonemic transcriptions (especially those found in dictionaries) of languages like English and German that have rhotic consonants that are not an alveolar trill. That i... See the sound sample in the info box on the right. ---
**Author:** ![AaronX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7bcc69/32.png) [@AaronX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AaronX)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/107 "2013-08-08T16:17:27Z")
> [@Svejk\_1](#): > > I really don’t get how a thought like that would occur to you. Do you think English is somehow a better language than others? Don’t all languages derive from English? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/108 "2013-08-08T16:49:32Z")
> [@AaronX](#): > > Don’t all languages derive from English? Of course they do. It was the language of Jesus Christ. They only became different after the Babel incident. Well, come to think of it, I think Glaswegian doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/109 "2013-08-08T17:00:56Z")
> [@obfusciatrist](#): > > In grad school a fellow student I (me from the Pacific Northwest with familial Kansas influences) was friends with was named Sheri (from Hawaii). She constantly complained that I pronounced her name as Shari. > > In two years of her trying to get me to hear the difference, I never did. I have New Jersey and NYC influences in my accent and Mary, marry, and merry have always been very distinct. This is one of the regions where the merger didn’t happen. Actually, it seems that merging the three vowels is a distinctly American thing and that very few non-American accents have it. Here’s a test for you. Try to sing [Mari-mac](http://celtic-lyrics.com/lyrics/502.html), a Scottish folk song and tongue-twister about a, uhh, shotgun wedding \<3. It relies on excessive references to “Mary”, “marry”, and “merry” to trip you up and make you flub up the words. If you have no trouble with it, you may be a Californian. Give the lyrics to a New Yorker and watch them contort their face as they struggle to make the constant vowel switches. Mari Mac’s mother’s making Mari Mac marry me My mother’s making me marry Mari Mac Well I’m going to marry Mari for my Mari’s taking care of me We’ll all be feeling merry when I marry Mari Mac ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/110 "2013-08-08T18:37:41Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Here’s a test for you. Try to sing [Mari-mac](http://celtic-lyrics.com/lyrics/502.html), a Scottish folk song and tongue-twister about a, uhh, shotgun wedding \<3. It relies on excessive references to “Mary”, “marry”, and “merry” to trip you up and make you flub up the words. If you have no trouble with it, you may be a Californian. Give the lyrics to a New Yorker and watch them contort their face as they struggle to make the constant vowel switches. > > Mari Mac’s mother’s making Mari Mac marry me > My mother’s making me marry Mari Mac > Well I’m going to marry Mari for my Mari’s taking care of me > We’ll all be feeling merry when I marry Mari Mac Goodness. That reminds me of one of the [vocal samples threads](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=445112): > [@](#): > > “Mary was merry as she married Terry, but then Scary Larry got carried away and chased Barry’s hairy dairy cattle through the ceremony.” “Mary”, “merry”, “marry”, “Terry”, “Scary”, “Larry”, “carry”, “Barry”, “hairy”, and “dairy” all rhyme for me in the dialect of Southern Ontario. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/111 "2013-08-08T18:57:24Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > Goodness. That reminds me of one of the [vocal samples threads](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=445112): “Mary”, “merry”, “marry”, “Terry”, “Scary”, “Larry”, “carry”, “Barry”, “hairy”, and “dairy” all rhyme for me in the dialect of Southern Ontario. 🙂 They all rhyme for me, too, along with the internal rhyme of “CERemony”. West-central Pennsylvania born and raised. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/112 "2013-08-08T19:20:47Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > They all rhyme for me, too, along with the internal rhyme of “CERemony”. West-central Pennsylvania born and raised. Yeah, all those rhyme to me, but “ceremony” I do appear to pronounce with a different vowel, so it’s not quite the same as “Sarah-mony.” Not sure why that word gets distinguished, but I’m pretty sure I pronounce that with a regular “short e” /ɛ/. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/113 "2013-08-08T19:44:06Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > Goodness. That reminds me of one of the [vocal samples threads](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=445112): “Mary”, “merry”, “marry”, “Terry”, “Scary”, “Larry”, “carry”, “Barry”, “hairy”, and “dairy” all rhyme for me in the dialect of Southern Ontario. 🙂 For me (NJ/NYC-influenced accent): I have grouped the words into groups of words that rhyme with each other but not with any other one in the list: 1. Mary, scary, hairy, dairy (also rhymes with airy, fairy, wary) 2. marry, Larry, carry, Barry (also rhymes with parry, tarry, Gary, Harry) 3. merry, Terry (also rhymes with berry, very, ferry, Kerry) So, “Be wary of the scary hairy dairy of Mary” rhymes, “Barry, carry Larry and tarry with Barry”, rhymes, and “Merry Terry in the ferry” rhymes. “Mary, marry Terry and carry scary Barry onto the ferry” is a tongue-twister. This also means that elder woodfolk of legend that have their own boat service can describe it with the non-rhyming label of “fairy ferry”. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/114 "2013-08-08T23:30:39Z")
The confusion over ñ arises from the pallatal nasal /ɲ/ (represented by ñ, which is not a “sound”) not being phonemic in English. We usually equate it with /nj/, but of course /nj/ and /ɲ/ are different in Spanish, see unión and uñón. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/115 "2013-08-09T00:06:46Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > 1. Mary, scary, hairy, dairy (also rhymes with airy, fairy, wary) > 2. marry, Larry, carry, Barry (also rhymes with parry, tarry, Gary, Harry) > 3. merry, Terry (also rhymes with berry, very, ferry, Kerry) And for me (Chicago), every single one of those rhymes! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/116 "2013-08-09T00:23:26Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Well, you sort of are making the point of the thread. Many (most?) Britsh-variants English speakers pronounce the vowel in Luke with some palatization. Enough to sound like “Lee-ewk” to my ears, but not to yours. Once again, the subtle interplay between brains and waves of air pressure which makes these discussions so interesting, and often frustrating or conentious. > [@JKellyMap](#): > > PS Some Brits certainly do notice the difference – a Brit actually _corrected_ me once for pronouncing my son’s name the American way (like with “kook” or “spook”, NOT like “cucumber” or “spew”). Not this Brit. To me the vowel “Luke” is (as you say it is for Americans) like the one in _spook_ or _kook_ and different from that in _cucumber_ or _spew_. I admit the difference between those vowels is subtle to my ear, but it is real enough. No way do I say “Lee-ewk” and I have never noticed another British person say it that way either. Perhaps there are some British accents where it happens - I can imagine it being said by someone with an “Oxford” accent, for instance, or something else very posh or intended to indicate being hyper-educated - but not my accent, and I don’t think most people’s. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/117 "2013-08-09T00:32:37Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Not this Brit. To me the vowel “Luke” is (as you say it is for Americans) like the one in _spook_ or _kook_ and different from that in _cucumber_ or _spew_. I admit the difference between those vowels is subtle to my ear, but it is real enough. No way do I say “Lee-ewk” and I have never noticed another British person say it that way either. Perhaps there are some British accents where it happens - I can imagine it being said by someone with an “Oxford” accent, for instance, or something else very posh or intended to indicate being hyper-educated - but not my accent, and I don’t think most people’s. Yeah, I’m not British, but I can’t think of ever hearing “Luke” being with a vowel like in “cucumber” or “spew.” (I’m assuming we’re talking about a “yew” sound here.) Listening to the various audio samples on [forvo.com for “Luke”](http://www.forvo.com/search/luke/) and names including “Luke,” none of them have a “yew” sound for the UK English samples. Interestingly enough, the one that sounds a little odd to my ears is the “Luke Kennedy” pronunciation, which claims to be from the United States, near the Ohio/Pittsburgh border. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/118 "2013-08-09T01:56:25Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > I have heard a Japanese speaker of otherwise excellent, barely accented English, trip up quite embarrassingly over the L-R distinction, apparently quite unaware that he was saying “lice” when he meant “rice”. (The joke he was trying to make fell completely flat because of this.) I haven’t met him but there is a friend of a friend, who was from Japan, but went here for highschool and spoke perfect English. He went home for a couple years and then there was the catastrophe in Japan. He messaged my friend on facebook “(friend’s name) I am arrive!” (alive). Seems like you can lose the ability after gaining it too. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/119 "2013-08-09T02:05:24Z")
Filipinos when speaking english constantly confuse F’s, P’s, B’s and V’s, there is no F or V in tagalog. I once had to stop and try to decipher what someone meant when they said “He had to porpeet the game (forfeit)”. I am not fluent but I understand a goodly amount of tagalog, I literally cannot pronounce certain sounds in it. The “NG” sound that we only use at the end of words in english is all over the place in tagalog words, I literally cannot pronounce “Pangalan” properly no matter how I try because of the NG sound is so different than what I am used to. I am super proud of myself for learning how to pronounce “mga” properly, I can’t properly discern “ng” and “nang” by ear though. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/120 "2013-08-09T02:59:14Z")
Njtt and pulykamell, I guess I stand corrected from standing corrected. The Brit who “corrected” me must have just found the American “oo” sound to simply be too flat and steady to his ears, and wanted me to add just a touch of “ew” – diphthongize, I think it’s called – which I’m sure you’ll agree most Brits do to one degree or another (Americans do, too, but just with the -w at the end, not the e- at the beginning). Not as much as any of us do for “cucumber” or “spew,” fine, you’ve convinced me of that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481.md?page=7)