# Any sounds in other languages that can't be distinguished in English? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 6, 2013, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481 "2013-08-06T09:36:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/121 "2013-08-09T08:42:42Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > The confusion over ñ arises from the pallatal nasal /ɲ/ (represented by ñ, which is not a “sound”) not being phonemic in English. We usually equate it with /nj/, but of course /nj/ and /ɲ/ are different in Spanish, see unión and uñón. That’s what I said in post 2, only without the IPA symbols. The only confusion is on the part of a series of people who can’t distinguish something I and anybody else whose primary language includes /ɲ/ can, therefore refuse to believe the distincion exists. I can’t hear the difference between Yale and jail, but I’ve never told someone whose primary language was English that such a difference did not exist: I believe them when they tell me it exists, and accept that the problem is in my hearing. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/122 "2013-08-09T10:44:00Z")
Nava, it seems to me that we should avoid the phrase “exists” in threads like this, and instead be more specific. I’m sorry, but we have established that some English speakers pronounce the -ni- in “onion” exactly the way most Spanish speakers pronounce the ñ in “uña” – in terms of _acoustic properties_. But this consonant is _phonemically distinct_ in Spanish in a way which it is not in English, and this (I’m pretty sure) is reflected in the tongue position – in Spanish, the tongue is flat up against the forward part of the roof of the mouth pretty much throughout the entire sound, while in English it doesn’t usually start there. It’s true that “uñón” and “unión” are pronounced slightly differently by most Spanish speakers, but _you_ might want to believe _me_ when I say that some English speakers pronounce the sound in question, when they say the English word “union,” more like the former and less like the latter. No “-ee-,” in other words. It’s _you_ who insists on inserting an -ee- when pronouncing this word in English; and that’s not _wrong_, but not is it now all English speakers pronounce it. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/123 "2013-08-09T10:52:50Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > only without the IPA symbols. And that’s why I posted. Also no description of place of articulation. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/124 "2013-08-09T11:04:03Z")
Ruken, do you disagree with me when I posit that some English speakers pronounce “union” with a ɲ? I agree that it’s not _phonemic_ in English, which is why I didn’t put the symbol between forward slashes. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/125 "2013-08-09T11:15:56Z")
Nava (and others): I’m not saying the phonemic distinctiveness in Spanish isn’t important. I agree that it is, and this is something you guys taught me during this thread. English speakers who pronounce “union” in English with a “ɲ” need to learn to insert an “-ee-” sound when they say the Spanish word “unión.” ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/126 "2013-08-09T11:37:26Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > West country and possibly Norfolk accents render ‘new’ something like ‘noou’. Northern Ireland, it sounds like ‘nouy’, but by and large, British English pronounces ‘new’ starting with a ‘ny~’ sound That’s true of most American English too, isn’t it? Certainly some people say “noo”, but it’s associated with lowbrow uneducated speech patterns that we tend to make fun of, yes? ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/127 "2013-08-09T11:45:31Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > That’s true of most American English too, isn’t it? Certainly some people say “noo”, but it’s associated with lowbrow uneducated speech patterns that we tend to make fun of, yes? _I_ pronounce it like “oo” (with maybe a bit of extra lip rounding at the end), and I don’t associate this with lowbrow speech! 🙂 I grew up in suburban New York. The only American I can recall pronouncing “new” with a distinctive “-eew” was from Virginia Beach, Virginia, so maybe it’s a coastal Mid-South regional thing. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/128 "2013-08-09T11:48:08Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > For pronunciation threads, [forvo.com](http://forvo.com) is a good place to go to hear various accents. [Here’s a bunch for “new.”](http://www.forvo.com/word/new/#en) > > All the UK and Australian pronunciations sound like palatalized ns to me, i.e. /nyoo/ vs /noo/ (unpalatalized.) The American pronunciations range from no palatalization (brittanic124’s being the clearest) to strong palatalization (Mike\_USA’s being perhaps the most extreme.) In other words, this. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/129 "2013-08-09T12:32:42Z")
Nava, what I’m saying is this: English speakers who, like me, happen to NOT insert an “-ee-” in “union” are the same English speakers who will have little difficulty pronouncing the Spanish “ñ” correctly. They will, however, have to teach themselves to insert an “-ee-” in Spanish “unión.” Conversely, English speakers who DO insert an “-ee-” in “union” will have lots of trouble with the Spanish “ñ,” but no trouble with the Spanish “unión.” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/130 "2013-08-09T16:17:13Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Nava, what I’m saying is this: English speakers who, like me, happen to NOT insert an “-ee-” in “union” are the same English speakers who will have little difficulty pronouncing the Spanish “ñ” correctly. Well, there is a difference, but it’s not an “-ee” sound. Standard English doesn’t have an “ee” in union. In IPA, it’s usually pronounced /junjən/. Spanish “uñon” would be something like /uɲon/, with the “ɲ” representing a palatal nasal, while Spanish “union” would be /unjon/. Note that the English pronunciation of “union” and the Spanish pronunciation of “union” both contain the same “nj” sequence of sounds, which is different than the /ɲ/ in “uñon.” I’m not an expert in Spanish, but I do speak Polish and Polish phonology also contains the /ɲ/ sound, written as ń (and is part of my last name). It is slightly different than the “nyuh” sound in “onion” or “union.” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/131 "2013-08-09T16:27:53Z")
Trying to pay attention closely to how I make the sounds, /nj/ starts out with the tip of the tongue at the alveolar ridge (for the /n/ sound) before moving up into the palate to make the /j/ sound. It feels like /n/ + /j/. Pronouncing /ɲ/, the sound seems to be articulated at the palate, and feels like making a single sound. At least I think that’s what’s going on. ---
**Author:** ![Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellis_Aponte_Jr)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/132 "2013-08-09T17:30:36Z")
I think **pulykamell** ’s two posts above are on the mark. It helps to think about this in terms of syllabic breaks. An English speaker will always split the “ny” sound so that one syllable ends with the “n” and the next begins with a “y.” You can vocalize that way in Spanish too, but you can _also_ initiate a syllable with ñ. > [@Nava](#): > > And I don’t hear Spanish speakers say canION. It’s caÑON. Note the syllable break. (Although Spanish speakers could say “canION,” but it would be a different word than cañón). ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/133 "2013-08-09T17:57:03Z")
Actually, [there’s a very good explanation here](http://www.espanol-ingles.com.mx/spanish-pronunciation/enye.shtml). > [@](#): > > In many informal guides to Spanish pronunciation, it’s usually stated that the Spanish sound represented by ñ is pronounced as a “ny” sequence in a similar way to the English ni in onion, companion etc. In fact, this is a little misleading\*. As we’ll see below, it turns out that: > > Spanish does have a sound sequence quite similar to a typical English pronunciation of onion; > but that sound sequence isn’t what is represented by the ñ! Reading through the rest, it looks like my explanation was in the ballpark, but the explanation linked to above is more precise and informative. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/134 "2013-08-09T20:11:07Z")
Thanks. As I stated in at least two previous posts, I discovered the same thing myself (by paying close attention to my tongue) – that the tongue is flat up against the alveolar ridge from the start in “ñ,” but not with the other things. I also stated that I doubt this has much effect, if any, on the \* acoustics\* – a sonograph would show that some English pronunciations of “ni” are indistinguishable _acoustically_ from a Spanish ñ. I might be wrong about that, but that’s my assertion. Mainly because the air is coming out of the nose anyway, with the tip of the tongue pressed against the alveolar ridge in all the cases, so there’s little effect if any from what’s going on further back in the mouth – not until later in the sound when the tongue tip pulls away from the alveolar ridge. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/135 "2013-08-09T20:17:40Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Thanks. As I stated in at least two previous posts, I discovered the same thing myself (by paying close attention to my tongue) – that the tongue is flat up against the alveolar ridge from the start in “ñ,” but not with the other things. > > I also stated that I doubt this has much effect, if any, on the \* acoustics\* – a sonograph would show that some English pronunciations of “ni” are indistinguishable _acoustically_ from a Spanish ñ. I might be wrong about that, but that’s my assertion. Mainly because the air is coming out of the nose anyway, with the tip of the tongue pressed against the alveolar ridge in all the cases, so there’s little effect if any from what’s going on further back in the mouth – not until later in the sound when the tongue tip pulls away from the alveolar ridge. Well, to me they sound slightly different. I’m trying to think of a Polish word where two words sound exactly the same, save for one having a /nj/ and the other a /ɲ/, but I’m coming up short. Wikipedia, though, is showing that the only difference in Spanish between union and uñon in Spanish is the /nj/ vs /ɲ/. [See here:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatal_consonant) > [@](#): > > Spanish has both a palatal nasal /ɲ/ and a sequence /nj/, distinguished e.g. in uñón /uɲon/ “large nail” (of the finger or toe) vs. unión /unjon/ “union”. So, in isolation with no context, a Spanish speaker should be able to distinguish those two words, so they will be acoustically different. **Nava** (or another Spanish speaker) is going to have to confirm or deny here. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/136 "2013-08-09T20:18:42Z")
Correction: in the first paragraph of the previous post, I meant “post-alveolar palate” (not “alveolar ridge”). I _did_ mean “alveolar ridge” the two times I used it in the second paragraph. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/137 "2013-08-09T20:24:50Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Well, to me they sound slightly different. I’m trying to think of a Polish word where two words sound exactly the same, save for one having a /nj/ and the other a /ɲ/, but I’m coming up short. > > Wikipedia, though, is showing that the only difference in Spanish between union and uñon in Spanish is the /nj/ vs /ɲ/. [See here:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatal_consonant) > > So, in isolation with no context, a Spanish speaker should be able to distinguish those two words, so they will be acoustically different. **Nava** (or another Spanish speaker) is going to have to confirm or deny here. Yeah, that minimal pair has been mentioned in this thread. But I found it to be minimal because of the “-ee-” in Spanish “unión” (which is also how some, but not all, English speakers say things like “onion” or “union”) – NOT because of the tongue being pressed against the post-alveolar palate from the onset of the sound, which is the ONLY thing unique to “ñ” that anyone has shown me so far. In other words, acoustically, Spanish speakers distinguish “ñ” from “ni” because of the “ee”, even though physically they’re also doing something else different (the post-alveolar thing). ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/138 "2013-08-09T20:26:40Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Yeah, that minimal pair has been mentioned in this thread. But I found it to be minimal because of the “-ee-” in Spanish “unión” (which is also how some, but not all, English speakers say things like “onion” or “union”) – NOT because of the tongue being pressed against the post-alveolar palate from the onset of the sound, which is the ONLY thing unique to “ñ” that anyone has shown me so far. > > In other words, acoustically, Spanish speakers distinguish “ñ” from “ni” because of the “ee”, even though physically they’re also doing something else different (the post-alveolar thing). But there is no “ee” in the IPA pronunciation there. It’s /unjon/ not /unijon/ or /union/. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/139 "2013-08-10T01:38:03Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Reading through the rest, it looks like my explanation was in the ballpark, but the explanation linked to above is more precise and informative. And conversely, I think this is what Nava and I were mentioning that, to us, onion doesn’t regularly sound like a word were we would use the symbol ñ. The sound that is usually taught to us that represents onion doesn’t sound like it should have ñ in it. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481/140 "2013-08-10T02:51:39Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > And conversely, I think this is what Nava and I were mentioning that, to us, onion doesn’t regularly sound like a word were we would use the symbol ñ. The sound that is usually taught to us that represents onion doesn’t sound like it should have ñ in it. Sounds about right to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-sounds-in-other-languages-that-cant-be-distinguished-in-english/665481.md?page=8)