# Any stats on use of guns in defense (home or personal) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 18, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-stats-on-use-of-guns-in-defense-home-or-personal/644470 "2012-12-18T23:53:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![GreedySmurf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a698b9/32.png) [@GreedySmurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreedySmurf)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-stats-on-use-of-guns-in-defense-home-or-personal/644470/1 "2012-12-18T23:53:13Z")
Curious foreigner here. šŸ˜› I notice that one of the top arguments in gun debates (both handguns and long arms) in the US in support of weapons is that they are needed for self defence. Either defence of the home, or to be carried when out and about for personal defence. In my quest to be informed on the issue, Iā€™m looking for, but havenā€™t been able to locate, any actual statistics on the number of incidents where an individual has defended himself and/or his home through use of a firearm. Presumably these incidents would be attended by police for an investigation, so Iā€™m presuming some form of stats would be kept? ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-stats-on-use-of-guns-in-defense-home-or-personal/644470/2 "2012-12-19T01:01:21Z")
A google search for ā€œthe armed citizenā€ will provide links the the NRAā€™s published articles that appear in their magazine each month. Additionally there is a web site [www.thearmedcitizen.com](http://www.thearmedcitizen.com) that tracks the data. In many cases the presence of a firearm in the hands of the intended victim ends the encounter with no police attendance. ---
**Author:** ![GreedySmurf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a698b9/32.png) [@GreedySmurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreedySmurf)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-stats-on-use-of-guns-in-defense-home-or-personal/644470/3 "2012-12-19T01:35:04Z")
Thanks for the link, Iā€™ll check it out. I am somewhat skeptical of relying on data provided by the NRA, but it might be a good starting point anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-stats-on-use-of-guns-in-defense-home-or-personal/644470/4 "2012-12-19T02:48:37Z")
Most incidents are never reported, so official figures are seriously low. Presumably investigated by police? Bullshit. I displayed a firearm five times from 1992 to 2003 to disuade people from breaking into my house when they knew I was there. The last time I had to go fetch the gun after the sight of me with a butcher knife in one hand and the phone calling 911 in the other hand didnā€™t stop him from trying to break down my door. Yes, the police were called. They drove by and never stoppedā€¦_45 minutes later_. Yeah, great job. I would have been dead on my floor for days before someone found me. On another occasion I displayed a firearm to stop two guys from mugging me at an isolated wayside rest at 6:30am on a Sunday morning. The only time the police are going to investigate are when someone gets shot or shots are fired, primarily so they can decide who to charge. When no shots are fired, they largely couldnā€™t give a fuck. Six incidents in an 11 year period of living in a not-so-nice neighborhood and while traveling. Zero in the 9 years since. What that means for me is that I have a fair bit of personal experience on the ā€˜guns as self-defenseā€™ front and when anti-gunners minimize, lie or spread false information about how prevalent it is, I kinda take offense at them talking out of their asses. ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-stats-on-use-of-guns-in-defense-home-or-personal/644470/5 "2012-12-19T02:53:22Z")
> [@GreedySmurf](#): > > Thanks for the link, Iā€™ll check it out. > > I am somewhat skeptical of relying on data provided by the NRA, but it might be a good starting point anyway. The data on the NRA site is from newspapers. Iā€™ve not looked recently, but they used to attribute the source. ---
**Author:** ![Kaboodle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8edcca/32.png) [@Kaboodle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaboodle)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-stats-on-use-of-guns-in-defense-home-or-personal/644470/6 "2012-12-19T03:00:45Z")
Thereā€™s a page on [GunCite.com](http://GunCite.com) that posts just this question. [How Often Are Firearms Used in Self-Defense](http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html) Studies of defensive gun use have come up with widely varying numbers. From a high of 2.5 million/year to a low of 108,000/year. The page contains links mostly surrounding a 1993 study headed by Gary Kleck, a Florida State University criminologist. There are mentions of 13 other studies and links to criticisms of Kleckā€™s methodologies. The question is a little more complicated than you might think. Do you exclude gun use in defending yourself against a wild animal? Does the gun have to have been fired? Say someone is threatening you with a knife, you point your gun at him and he runs away. Does that count? What about the same situation where you just tell the attacker you have a gun (and you do but itā€™s not showing) and he runs. That should get you started. If you want to look around just search for ā€˜Annual US defensive gun useā€™. ---
**Author:** ![GreedySmurf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a698b9/32.png) [@GreedySmurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreedySmurf)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-stats-on-use-of-guns-in-defense-home-or-personal/644470/7 "2012-12-19T03:31:23Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Most incidents are never reported, so official figures are seriously low. > > Presumably investigated by police? Bullshit. When I first posted I was thinking of cases where shots had been fired. Hence why I presumed police would be involved. But just brandishing a firearm counts as well for what Iā€™d like to know. Kind of derailing my own thread here, but I have to ask, From your personal experience Chimera, why would you not call police if someone was trying to break into your home? Even after you scared off the intruder by displaying your gun? And with the attempted mugging, surely that would have been worth a call to police to let them those people were in the area? This isnā€™t an attack or anything, Iā€™m genuinely interested in the situations you describe. ---
**Author:** ![Randvek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@Randvek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randvek)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-stats-on-use-of-guns-in-defense-home-or-personal/644470/8 "2012-12-19T04:29:45Z")
> [@GreedySmurf](#): > > Kind of derailing my own thread here, but I have to ask, From your personal experience Chimera, why would you not call police if someone was trying to break into your home? Even after you scared off the intruder by displaying your gun? Iā€™ll admit, this is the first thing that came into my mind when I read Chimeraā€™s post, too. Who in their right mind drives off an intruder and \*doesnā€™t \*call the cops afterward? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-stats-on-use-of-guns-in-defense-home-or-personal/644470/9 "2012-12-19T04:44:24Z")
> [@GreedySmurf](#): > > ā€¦From your personal experience Chimera, **why would you not call police if someone was trying to break into your home**? Even after you scared off the intruder by displaying your gun? > [@Randvek](#): > > Iā€™ll admit, this is the first thing that came into my mind when I read Chimeraā€™s post, too. Who in their right mind drives off an intruder and \*doesnā€™t \*call the cops afterward? According to **Chimera** ā€™s post, he did call the police. _The last time I had to go fetch the gun after the sight of me with a butcher knife in one hand **and the phone calling 911** in the other hand didnā€™t stop him from trying to break down my door. **Yes, the police were called**. They drove by and never stoppedā€¦45 minutes later_. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-stats-on-use-of-guns-in-defense-home-or-personal/644470/10 "2012-12-19T04:57:05Z")
> [@GreedySmurf](#): > > Curious foreigner here. šŸ˜› > > I notice that one of the top arguments in gun debates (both handguns and long arms) in the US in support of weapons is that they are needed for self defence. Either defence of the home, or to be carried when out and about for personal defence. > > In my quest to be informed on the issue, Iā€™m looking for, but havenā€™t been able to locate, any actual statistics on the number of incidents where an individual has defended himself and/or his home through use of a firearm. Presumably these incidents would be attended by police for an investigation, so Iā€™m presuming some form of stats would be kept? Since itā€™s illegal to carry a gun in Chicago, Ill and you will be arrested for carrying a gun, why would you notify the police that you displayed a firearm and the criminal ran away? The criminal didnā€™t actually finish committing an illegal act and is now nowhere to be found. You, on the other hand, have admitted violating the law and have given your name and address to the police. Say, ā€œHiā€ to your fellow cell mates. I believe there were several newspaper polls conducted decades ago that indicated that millions of people had used, but not neccessarily discharged, firearms to prevent crimes. You might want to read ā€œMore Guns, Less Crimeā€ by John Lott for a better understanding of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-stats-on-use-of-guns-in-defense-home-or-personal/644470/11 "2012-12-19T05:29:05Z")
> [@Randvek](#): > > Iā€™ll admit, this is the first thing that came into my mind when I read Chimeraā€™s post, too. Who in their right mind drives off an intruder and \*doesnā€™t \*call the cops afterward? Well, if you read his post, **Chimera** did call the police (who responded with a blazingly fast 45 minute response time). But to answer your question - people who live in very high crime neighborhoods often donā€™t, as the police are so busy dealing with ā€œseriousā€ crimes that they wonā€™t do anything about a mere attempted break-in. (Or even an actual burglary, although for that they will put in a perfunctory appearance.). Itā€™s just a waste of everyoneā€™s time. One sign youā€™re living in a lower-crime area is that the police actually take ā€œsmallā€ crimes such as unsuccessful break-ins seriously. ---
**Author:** ![GreedySmurf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a698b9/32.png) [@GreedySmurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreedySmurf)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-stats-on-use-of-guns-in-defense-home-or-personal/644470/12 "2012-12-19T05:54:21Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > Well, if you read his post, **Chimera** did call the police (who responded with a blazingly fast 45 minute response time). > > But to answer your question - people who live in very high crime neighborhoods often donā€™t, as the police are so busy dealing with ā€œseriousā€ crimes that they wonā€™t do anything about a mere attempted break-in. (Or even an actual burglary, although for that they will put in a perfunctory appearance.). Itā€™s just a waste of everyoneā€™s time. > > One sign youā€™re living in a lower-crime area is that the police actually take ā€œsmallā€ crimes such as unsuccessful break-ins seriously. I got the impression from his post he didnā€™t bother except for the last time. But I obviously stand to be corrected, that was just my first impression. Maybe I just donā€™t get what a ā€˜high crimeā€™ area in the States is like. I canā€™t fathom an attempted break in not getting any (or just perfunctory) police intervention. I had my car broken into early this year, while it was parked in my backyard, and I had a police car out to my place within about 20 mins, and the forensics van around the next day on the off chance they could get some usable prints off the car interior (non usable as as it turns out - Damn you CSI! - according to the police tech it is actually rare/difficult to get usable prints off the surfaces inside a car). ---
**Author:** ![Mdcastle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/958977/32.png) [@Mdcastle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mdcastle)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-stats-on-use-of-guns-in-defense-home-or-personal/644470/13 "2012-12-19T06:09:11Z")
I had my car broken into in the city. I went over to talk to a cop that was sitting in a nearby parking lot and he told me to call some city phone number to report it. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-stats-on-use-of-guns-in-defense-home-or-personal/644470/14 "2012-12-19T13:00:40Z")
> [@GreedySmurf](#): > > Maybe I just donā€™t get what a ā€˜high crimeā€™ area in the States is like. I canā€™t fathom an attempted break in not getting any (or just perfunctory) police intervention. In a high crime area in the US, the police are forced into triage. Theyā€™re expending most their effort trying to solve crimes of violence. Theyā€™ll give an actual burglary some attention, since property is missing and there was a potential for violence if the burgler had met the homeowner, but their investigation tends to be perfunctory since they know the chances of actually _solving_ the crime is low. An _attempted_ break-in, where no one got hurt, nothingā€™s missing, and the homeowner can give at best a minimal description of the suspect? Thatā€™s very low on their priority list. ---
**Author:** ![zwede](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ac91a4/32.png) [@zwede](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwede)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-stats-on-use-of-guns-in-defense-home-or-personal/644470/15 "2012-12-19T15:22:41Z")
When I lived in Sweden a mere burglary would not make the police show up. Standard procedure was that the home owner would be told to come by the police station (during business hours) and fill out a report for the insurance company. Maybe that has changed since the 90ā€™s when I lived there. Outside cities in Sweden the nearest police patrol car can be an hour away. Rural Sweden is very sparsely populated and there may only be a few police cars for quite a large area. If none happen to be close, you wait. I now live an a fairly low-crime area in the US. I had my burglar alarm go off on a false alarm once and had a police car outside my door in less than 5 minutes. I was quite impressed. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-stats-on-use-of-guns-in-defense-home-or-personal/644470/16 "2012-12-19T20:13:38Z")
> [@GreedySmurf](#): > > Thanks for the link, Iā€™ll check it out. > > I am somewhat skeptical of relying on data provided by the NRA, but it might be a good starting point anyway. You shouldnā€™t be. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-stats-on-use-of-guns-in-defense-home-or-personal/644470/17 "2012-12-19T21:02:36Z")
Iā€™ve been skeptical of stats posted by the NRA ever since they misrepresented crime figures for Australia. Wikipedia: > [@](#): > > The American National Rifle Association claimed in 2000 that violent crimes had increased in Australia since the introduction of new laws, based on highly unrepresentative statistics from newspaper articles. The federal Attorney General Daryl Williams accused the NRA of falsifying government statistics and urged the NRA to ā€œremove any reference to Australiaā€ from its website.[33] > **[Gun laws of Australia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia)** > > Firearms restriction in Australia are predominantly within the jurisdiction of Australian states and territories, with the importation of guns regulated by the federal government. In the last two decades of the 20th century, following several high-profile killing sprees, the federal government coordinated more restrictive firearms legislation with all state governments. > Gun laws were largely aligned in 1996 by the National Firearms Agreement. In two federally funded gun buybacks and voluntary... The 2.5 million defensive gun uses a year figure mentioned above is a gross exaggeration, of course. It gets worse when the figure is misrepresented as lives saved. Cracked: > [@](#): > > Except ā€œ2.5 millionā€ comes from a single study back in 1993. A study that involved calling 4,977 people across the country, asking them a few gun questions and then adjusting the number to fit the population of the whole country. The number is both highly cited and highly disputed. Not only are the figures not enough to make an accurate estimate (other studies range from 50,000 to 2 million), but the results donā€™t actually translate to ā€œlives saved thanks to gun use.ā€ They refer to a gun being involved in the presumed protection of a person or thing. This could be a life-threatening situation or a situation where a gun wasnā€™t needed at all. DGUs include people who were in actual danger of losing their lives, as well as people who were George Zimmerman. Regardless, the general consensus is that 2.5 million is a gross exaggeration. Read more: [http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-4-most-meaningless-arguments-against-gun-control\_p2/#ixzz2FX7nMAQL](http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-4-most-meaningless-arguments-against-gun-control_p2/#ixzz2FX7nMAQL) BigAppleBucky posted an interesting analysis of justified homicides, which are probably the only reliable stat youā€™re going to get on the use of firearms for personal defense. It was ignored in the thread where it was originally posted, despite being, IMO, the best thing in it. > [@](#): > > In 2009 there were 395 legally justified homicides. Called ā€œlegal interventionā€. > [http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr59/nvsr59\_04.pdf](http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr59/nvsr59_04.pdf) (forgotten the page number) > > In 2010 there were 405. > [http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr60/nvsr60\_04.pdf](http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr60/nvsr60_04.pdf) (page 45) > > Those pale in comparison with homicides and accidental deaths. In 2009 the ratio was 30:1 and in 2010 it was 29:1. > Accidental death by firearms 600 (2010) 554 (2009) > Suicide by firearms 19,308 (2010) 18,735 (2009) > Murder by firearms 11,015 (2010) 11,493 (2009) (Out of a total of 16,065 fatal assaults in 2010) > Legal intervention 405 (2010) 395 (2009) - itā€™s not clear to me that these are all firearms deaths. Letā€™s assume they are since that is better for the pro-gun argument. > Undetermined intent firearms 246 (2010) 232 (2009) > > So letā€™s add these up for 2010. > Firearm murders 11,015 > Accidental gunshot deaths 600 > Sub total 11,615 > Suicides 19,308 > Undertermined 246 > Total 31,169 deaths by guns, except by legal action. > Compare now to legal intervention of 405 > 11,615/405 = 28.68 or approximately 29:1. So in 2009 ā€œbadā€ gunshot deaths outnumbered ā€œgoodā€ gunshot deaths 30:1 (actually a tad higher) and that number improved to 28.68:1 in 2010. > > With suicides the total number ratio would be 76.97:1, or 77:1. Basically there were more legal action killings and fewer murders in '10 than '09, but more suicides, which is understandable given the economy. [Link](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15811539&postcount=690). ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-stats-on-use-of-guns-in-defense-home-or-personal/644470/18 "2012-12-19T22:25:49Z")
> [@GreedySmurf](#): > > Kind of derailing my own thread here, but I have to ask, From your personal experience Chimera, why would you not call police if someone was trying to break into your home? Even after you scared off the intruder by displaying your gun? Once, I scared off someone prowling around my house. After the fact, there was _zero_ evidence anyone had been there, let alone who it might be. The cops would have, _at most,_ taken a statement from me, filed it in a file cabinet somewhere, and done nothing else. They likely wouldnā€™t even do that much, just have a look around, confirm thereā€™s no one there anymore, call a ā€˜nothing to see, hereā€™ in on the radio, and leave. No paperwork to fill out, that way. There was no point in wasting my time to do that, since I heard the person running away through the woods, already. Thatā€™s the situation in _most_ incidents where a criminal is chased way with no shots fired. Consequently, most such incidents are never reported. Most people canā€™t be bothered, when the cops are going to do nothing about it. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-stats-on-use-of-guns-in-defense-home-or-personal/644470/19 "2012-12-19T22:44:33Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > Once, I scared off someone prowling around my house. After the fact, there was _zero_ evidence anyone had been there, let alone who it might be. The cops would have, _at most,_ taken a statement from me, filed it in a file cabinet somewhere, and done nothing else. They likely wouldnā€™t even do that much, just have a look around, confirm thereā€™s no one there anymore, call a ā€˜nothing to see, hereā€™ in on the radio, and leave. No, ā€˜worst caseā€™ was that, these being _ **Minneapolis** _ cops, they would arrest me for ā€œbrandishingā€ (based on my own report), confiscate my gun and turn my house upside down looking for anything else they could charge me with. As it was, the last time when I told the 911 operator that the guy stopped, looked at me and went back to battering my door; so I was going to put the phone down and get my gun, she attempted to ORDER me not to. And like I said, the cops _drove down the alley and kept right on going_ a full 45 minutes later. They never stopped, they never came up to the house, nothing. After that, I wouldnā€™t have called the Minneapolis cops for anything short of coming out to clean up bodies. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-stats-on-use-of-guns-in-defense-home-or-personal/644470/20 "2012-12-19T22:59:37Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > No, ā€˜worst caseā€™ was that, these being _ **Minneapolis** _ cops,ā€¦ OK, you have me there. I was (and still am) in a low-crime, rural area of NY State. The cops would not have cared that I had a loaded shotgun. I assume, probably correctly, that most of my neighbors do, too. So would the cops. It was almost certainly some idiot looking for an empty house to break into and see what he could steal. Maybe a neighborā€™s kid. The prowler almost certainly had a brown streak in his underwear that he had to go home and clean up, instead of going to break into some other house, after hearing/seeing me rack the shotgun and point it his way. A herd of elephants would have run away more quietly :D. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-stats-on-use-of-guns-in-defense-home-or-personal/644470.md?page=2)