# Any studies re: psychopathic behavior when they don't have access to guns? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 17, 2023, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-studies-re-psychopathic-behavior-when-they-dont-have-access-to-guns/982823 "2023-04-17T23:01:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2023, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-studies-re-psychopathic-behavior-when-they-dont-have-access-to-guns/982823/23 "2023-04-18T19:25:16Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Have there been any studies in jurisdictions where guns are not legal, and what sort of alternate behavior that psychopaths use to take out rage, frustration, etc., which traditionally would have resulted in gun violence in countries where guns are legal? Are mass shooters actually psychopaths? ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2023, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-studies-re-psychopathic-behavior-when-they-dont-have-access-to-guns/982823/24 "2023-04-18T19:29:23Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Are mass shooters actually psychopaths? Of course this is just my speculation, but I think some are, but not most. Just like most “regular” murderers are not likely psychopaths. The number of real, clinical psychopaths is low and hard to definitely distinguish in individual cases anyway. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2023, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-studies-re-psychopathic-behavior-when-they-dont-have-access-to-guns/982823/25 "2023-04-18T21:44:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But they do have the murders. “Gun deaths” is a bad term. Are we comparing murder rates or deaths by guns, which include suicides? Nope, not in the developed world. [https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/murder-rate-by-country](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/murder-rate-by-country) ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2023, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-studies-re-psychopathic-behavior-when-they-dont-have-access-to-guns/982823/26 "2023-04-18T22:19:35Z")
Most crime of all types goes on between people who know each other, even nominally. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-studies-re-psychopathic-behavior-when-they-dont-have-access-to-guns/982823/27 "2023-04-19T00:30:53Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Nope, not in the developed world. Again, if you define “developed world” to suit your argument, the term is meaningless. Even this site admits the term is hard to define. _The term “developed country” is often used to describe countries with developed economies or developed markets, which can lead to scenarios in which a given country is considered developed in one sense by one institution, but not in another sense by another institution._ [Developed Countries 2026](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/developed-countries) However, they include Russia, Uruguay , Costa Rica, etc all of who, have a higher murder rate. However, your answer does not compute. You say “nope” Nope to what? And what “not in the developed world”? > [@nearwildheaven](#): > > Most crime of all types goes on between people who know each other, even nominally. By that they include members of gangs and rival gangs. Most murders in the USA are caused by handguns, obtained illegally, in the hands of gangs members. Since the term “mass shooting” often includes three + victims, that also means most mass shootings are caused by gang drug warfare. The war on drugs is what is causing the high murder rate. Mind you, the moderately easy access to guns makes that rate higher of course. But again, this is not the usual gun debate, please. The Op wants to know what do _psychopathic killers_ use, especially when they cant get guns. It seems, by the numbers, that psychopathic killers do not need guns for their killings, they are mostly serial killers who use strangulation, knives, etc. The gun deaths caused by the war on drugs are- in the most part- not committed by psychopaths, just ordinary greedy, violent thugs. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-studies-re-psychopathic-behavior-when-they-dont-have-access-to-guns/982823/28 "2023-04-19T01:12:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Again, if you define “developed world” to suit your argument, the term is meaningless. Again, you can parse whatever nonsense you want, it doesn’t change the fact that your supporting child murder with your defense of America’s gun culture. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-studies-re-psychopathic-behavior-when-they-dont-have-access-to-guns/982823/29 "2023-04-19T01:43:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Bombs can kill even more than guns- > > [Top 10 deadliest bombings on U.S. soil - masslive.com](https://www.masslive.com/news/boston/2013/04/top_10_deadliest_bombings_on_u.html) > > The Oklahoma City Bombing killed 168. > > In 1927 a psychopath blew up a school with dynamite killing 45, mostly children. > > And so forth. …yeah, we get it, American “psychopaths” like to shoot people AND blow them up. ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-studies-re-psychopathic-behavior-when-they-dont-have-access-to-guns/982823/30 "2023-04-19T05:53:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not- less deadly at all. Machete “sprees”, axe murderers, bombings, etc. > > Bombs can kill even more than guns- Really? How many _axe murdering_ sprees have you counted recently? Yeah, bombs away…except you have to dig up bombing incidents _over a century_ to get a list going. It seems bombs, arsons etc, are just too impersonal to most spree killers. Survivors tend to tell how the killer moved from person to person, looked them in the eye and pulled the trigger - this kind of person-on-person ultimate power seems key to these killers. There is no indication these people would turn to bombs and matchbooks if guns were not available. The latter are more of a political terrorist’s tool. ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-studies-re-psychopathic-behavior-when-they-dont-have-access-to-guns/982823/31 "2023-04-19T06:00:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Like when protesters are in the streets? When terrorist tactics over here (d)evolved into using cars / trucks on pedestrians as mass murdering tools, plazas and walkways in city centers saw the adoption of discrete barriers that make it impossible for cars to speed into people, while not inhibiting people moving in any other way. Protesters on the streets is a special situation. They are not conducive to displays of psychopathic rage, due to heavy police presence, intentionally blocked street sections etc. It’s the unassuming crowd going about their business where the cars-as-weapons type of strikes occur. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-studies-re-psychopathic-behavior-when-they-dont-have-access-to-guns/982823/32 "2023-04-19T06:02:34Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > The number of real, clinical psychopaths is low and hard to definitely distinguish in individual cases anyway. Further, not all psychopaths are violent. I remember reading (sorry, no cite handy) that they make great corporate executives. It’s easy to treat your workforce as cogs in a profit machine when you’re literally incapable of empathizing with them. ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-studies-re-psychopathic-behavior-when-they-dont-have-access-to-guns/982823/33 "2023-04-19T09:57:11Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Toxylon](#): > > > > Yeah, only less deadly. > > Not- less deadly at all. Machete “sprees”, axe murderers, bombings, etc. Stephen Paddock killed 60 people and wounded over 400 without ever leaving his hotel room. In the Kunming train station attack, 8 people with knives killed 31 and wounded 143. ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-studies-re-psychopathic-behavior-when-they-dont-have-access-to-guns/982823/34 "2023-04-19T10:28:06Z")
Yes, it’s just dishonest whataboutism to claim guns and bladed weapons are somehow equal. Here locally a guy planned a spree killing hit into his vocational school. Due to recent school shootings involving semi-automatic pistols and the resultant tightening of gun permit conditions, he was unable to get the pistols he wanted. So he armed himself with a sword bought online, went to school, and succeeded in killing one student. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-studies-re-psychopathic-behavior-when-they-dont-have-access-to-guns/982823/35 "2023-04-19T10:44:21Z")
I’m assuming OP is using “psychopath” loosely to mean someone who kills without an obvious personal motive (money/lust/revenge), rather than a strict clinical diagnosis. Some of the serial killers in the UK that come to mind used whatever method was to hand (literally, in the case of a strangler, like Denis Nilsen, but there have been poisoners who had access to poisons, like Graham Young and Beverley Allitt, or Steven Port who gave overdoses of GHB, as well as those who used the more obvious tools like knives and hammers). There have been spectacular shooting cases here, as at Hungerford and Dunblane, but they were quite swiftly followed with stricter controls and tighter enforcement of existing controls on guns. Which doesn’t entirely stop criminals from getting their hands on guns, but those wouldn’t be what I think the OP means by psychopaths. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-studies-re-psychopathic-behavior-when-they-dont-have-access-to-guns/982823/36 "2023-04-19T11:46:09Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > Some of the serial killers in the UK that come to mind used whatever method was to hand (literally, in the case of a strangler, like Denis Nilsen, but there have been poisoners who had access to poisons, like Graham Young and Beverley Allitt, or Steven Port who gave overdoses of GHB, as well as those who used the more obvious tools like knives and hammers). and of course the man who was potentially the world’s biggest serial killer, Dr. Harold Shipman. Reasonable estimates put the number of his victims at 250. He’s a probably a very good example of what we consider a psychopath and of course guns played no part. Were they available to him I still don’t think that method would have appealed. I wonder if true psychopaths might be less inclined towards spree killings (for which guns are very well suited) and more towards methods that benefit from premeditation and planning. Are they more likely to “flip” and the grab the most destructive item at hand? (in which case the gun v other weapon availability is relevant). Or is that just not in their nature? I don’t know, I’d be interested if anyone can uncover any literature on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-studies-re-psychopathic-behavior-when-they-dont-have-access-to-guns/982823/37 "2023-04-19T12:08:44Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Have there been any studies in jurisdictions where guns are not legal, and what sort of alternate behavior that psychopaths use to take out rage, frustration, etc., which traditionally would have resulted in gun violence in countries where guns are legal? Well, evidence over time indicates that an angry/demented person who wants to kill will find a way to do it even if there are no guns anywhere around. When Cain killed Abel, he didn’t use a Glock. I think the best “study” is to study nations that have strict gun control and see how violence manifests itself and at what level. That has been done numerous times and, if I may generalize, the difference is that there are fewer murders simply because a gun is a far more efficient killing machine than a knife/club/poison,etc. A drive-by shooting can kill several people within seconds, but a drive-by where they had to throw knives would be far less effective. A demented person penetrating a school can shoot dozens with an AR-15, but is going to kill far less and take more time to do it with a knife. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-studies-re-psychopathic-behavior-when-they-dont-have-access-to-guns/982823/38 "2023-04-19T19:02:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not- less deadly at all. Bladed weapons are of course less deadly than guns. If they weren’t, **why do we arm our soldiers with guns**? Why don’t we save a ton of money by arming them with swords? Come on, you know this. > [@Jasmine](#): > > Well, evidence over time indicates that an angry/demented person who wants to kill will find a way to do it even if there are no guns anywhere around. No, actually, evidence does not indicate that. What the evidence - mountains of evidence - indicated is that a person, whether crazy or angry or whatever, is much likelier to kill if they have a firearm than if they have almost any other kind of weapon you can possibly name. That’s why firearms were invented, and it is why or centuries now they have been the primary weapon of all modern armies, the weapon of choice for hunters, the weapon of choice for law enforcement. All evidence very strongly indicates that the presence of a firearm makes both homicide and suicide way likelier. There is no reasonable dispute to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-studies-re-psychopathic-behavior-when-they-dont-have-access-to-guns/982823/39 "2023-04-19T19:04:26Z")
> [@Toxylon](#): > > Yes, it’s just dishonest whataboutism to claim guns and bladed weapons are somehow equal No one is claiming that. However, the question is _“what do psychopaths use when they don’t have access to guns”?_ Let us not try and turn this into yet another pointless gun debate. That is not the question. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > and of course the man who was potentially the world’s biggest serial killer, Dr. Harold Shipman. Reasonable estimates put the number of his victims at 250. > > He’s a probably a very good example of what we consider a psychopath and of course guns played no part. Were they available to him I still don’t think that method would have appealed. > > I wonder if true psychopaths might be less inclined towards spree killings (for which guns are very well suited) and more towards methods that benefit from premeditation and planning. Yes, I think I agree. Most “mass shootings” are drug gang shoot outs. True psychopaths with high counts seems to choose more personal, ways of killing. > [@RickJay](#): > > Bladed weapons are of course less deadly than guns. Of course they are. But artillery and bombs are even more deadly. However here we are discussing what weapons psychopaths prefer. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-studies-re-psychopathic-behavior-when-they-dont-have-access-to-guns/982823/40 "2023-04-19T19:09:46Z")
Moderating: > [@madmonk28](#): > > Again, you can parse whatever nonsense you want, it doesn’t change the fact that your supporting child murder with your defense of America’s gun culture. That’s an unfair leap to make and a personal attack to boot. Dial this back and keep the discussion non-personal. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-studies-re-psychopathic-behavior-when-they-dont-have-access-to-guns/982823/41 "2023-04-19T19:10:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Of course they are. So when you said hammers and knives were “not less deadly at all” did you mean that or not? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-studies-re-psychopathic-behavior-when-they-dont-have-access-to-guns/982823/42 "2023-04-19T19:15:09Z")
Obviously, if you are a soldier or a gang members, the gun is the best choice. But if you are a _psychopathic serial killer,_ knives, strangulation, and etc seem to be the weapons of choice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-studies-re-psychopathic-behavior-when-they-dont-have-access-to-guns/982823.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-studies-re-psychopathic-behavior-when-they-dont-have-access-to-guns/982823.md?page=3)