# Any such thing as an English number? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 2, 2001, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-such-thing-as-an-english-number/85001 "2001-10-02T17:28:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bacobit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@bacobit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bacobit)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2001, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-such-thing-as-an-english-number/85001/1 "2001-10-02T17:28:04Z")
Hi! Something’s been bugging me. In the days after the attack, I heard a report that someone had been arrested in ( I believe ) Canada, with what appeared to be codes scrawled on a piece of paper sewn inside his pants. The reporter went on to describe these codes as “sets of English and Arabic numbers” Now, I thought that the numbers we use here in the States ARE Arabic numbers. Is there any such thing as an English number? Does anyone know what the reporter could have possibly meant? What has been troubling me about it is the possibility the reporter’s ignorance was willful, motivated by an unwillingness to admit there is ANYTHING shared by our cultures. But perhaps it’s all just my ignorance. Any ideas? John ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2001, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-such-thing-as-an-english-number/85001/2 "2001-10-02T17:31:52Z")
I, too, was taught that our numerals were “Arabic.” And, of course, our place value system traces directly from Arabic math. However, I’ve started trying to learn Arabic recently - Arabic numerals - at least handwritten - are different than ours. ---
**Author:** ![dqa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dqa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dqa)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2001, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-such-thing-as-an-english-number/85001/3 "2001-10-02T19:24:02Z")
Our numerals were derived originally from India, picked up by Arab traders, and the system made its way to Europe. I learned them as Hindu-Arabic. **bup** is right, there are alternate characters for the digits used in some Arab areas. 8, for instance, looks like ^. I’ve seen these used on clock faces and a few other places, but I’m not sure whether you’d use them when writing longer numbers like 7,094,886,231,530.8923505661. **bacobit** , can you give us a website, or was this just a broadcast report? I’d like to share this if it’s available online. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2001, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-such-thing-as-an-english-number/85001/4 "2001-10-02T19:30:38Z")
Note that “four” is English and “cuatro” is Spanish. (I don’t know any Arabic.) So the report _could_ be accurate assuming someone was actually writing down numbers as words rather than numerals. And _that_ I strongly doubt. So the report is probably wrong or misleading. FtG ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2001, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-such-thing-as-an-english-number/85001/5 "2001-10-02T20:23:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ftg \* > **So the report is probably wrong or misleading.** I don’t think the report is either. There are numerals for the whole numbers below ten (e.g. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0). In most of the world, the so-called “Arabic” numbers are used. But in Arabic-speaking countries (and India, too), there is a different set in use, as **dqa** explains. FWIW, in the “Semitic” numbers (my coining) that **dqa** mentions, “5” is written as “o” - are we on the same page, **dqa**? See the “Semitic” numbers here: [http://www.ignatius.edu/Turner/arabic/anumbers.htm](http://www.ignatius.edu/Turner/arabic/anumbers.htm) The quandary for the reporter is this: what are the “Semitic” numerals properly called? Is there a proper term for these numerals in English? Can’t well call them “Arabic” numerals, now can you? Marking them as “English” and “Arabic” numerals was probably a copy-editor’s compromise, figuring that most people would know what the writer meant. ---
**Author:** ![bacobit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@bacobit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bacobit)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2001, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-such-thing-as-an-english-number/85001/6 "2001-10-02T20:59:43Z")
sorry dqa, I don’t have a web site; it was something I heard on a televised report. I’m new around here, and I just wanted to say how impressed I am at the intelligence of this site. Finally - a place with answers! ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2001, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-such-thing-as-an-english-number/85001/7 "2001-10-02T22:15:36Z")
We’ve got a British billion (= a million million), as opposed to an American billion (= a thousand million). But nothing ‘English’ in that context. ---
**Author:** ![Neurodoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/848f3c/32.png) [@Neurodoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurodoc)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2001, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-such-thing-as-an-english-number/85001/8 "2001-10-02T22:50:02Z")
If you refer to the numerical cyphers for the common numbers, these are of hindu-arabic origin, especially the cypher for “zero,” the “0”. The “names” of the numbers, such as “one,” “two,” “three,” …“ten,” “eleven,” etc., are of Germanic origin. The only purely English number I know of is the “google.” ---
**Author:** ![Chez\_Guevara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2001, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-such-thing-as-an-english-number/85001/9 "2001-10-03T00:02:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*Originally posted by glee \*\* > _We’ve got a British billion (= a million million), as opposed to an American billion (= a thousand million)._ Is this still true? I though we had standardised on _one billion = one thousand million_ to fit in with the rest of civilisation. Please check your pay packet and get back to me on this. ---
**Author:** ![urban1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d07c76/32.png) [@urban1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urban1)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2001, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-such-thing-as-an-english-number/85001/10 "2001-10-03T00:40:36Z")
> [@](#): > > The only purely English number I know of is the “google.” googol, perhaps? \*\*googol[sup]googol [/sup] \*\* is a really big number. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2001, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-such-thing-as-an-english-number/85001/11 "2001-10-03T01:37:30Z")
\>\> I though we had standardised on one billion = one thousand million to fit in with the rest of civilisation. I do not know what you call “the rest of civilisation” but AFAIK it is the USA who is out of step with the rest of the world, civilised or not. This reminds me of the quote about “the English channel unpassable due to bad weather, the Continent is isolated”. ---
**Author:** ![fandango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b5ac83/32.png) [@fandango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fandango)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2001, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-such-thing-as-an-english-number/85001/12 "2001-10-03T01:53:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nostradamus \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\*Originally posted by glee \*\* > > _We’ve got a British billion (= a million million), as opposed to an American billion (= a thousand million)._ > > Is this still true? I though we had standardised on _one billion = one thousand million_ to fit in with the rest of civilisation. > > Please check your pay packet and get back to me on this. \*\* you mean numbers like milliard and billiard don’t exist anymore? ---
**Author:** ![Chez\_Guevara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2001, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-such-thing-as-an-english-number/85001/13 "2001-10-03T02:18:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*Originally posted by sailor \*\* > \*I do not know what you call “the rest of civilisation” but AFAIK it is the USA who is out of step with the rest of the world, civilised or not. This reminds me of the quote about “the English channel unpassable due to bad weather, the Continent is isolated”. \* **Sailor** , this from **Etymology Of English Numbers** : \*In economic matters, the US system tends to dominate: even those countries that use the original, more logical system tend to use the US system for fiscal matters. In science though, both systems remain, giving rise to great scope for confusion.\* I’ve read the rest of your post a million times but I still can’t see it’s relevance. No more use of irony for me while you’re around. **fandango** , _milliard_ does exist but, in the UK anyway, the term is no longer in technical use. The US and Canadian equivalent in my dictionary ( **OED** ) is given as _billion_. _Billiard_, I cannot find except for a definition relating to the game of billiards.