# Any transgender Dopers? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 22, 2012, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-transgender-dopers/622685 "2012-05-22T02:34:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-transgender-dopers/622685/81 "2012-05-25T00:18:19Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Access to public restrooms is, admittedly, a tough issue. Ideally, a person should be able to use the restroom associated with their preferred gender, and no one else needs to worry about if a person “should” be in that bathroom or not. There are other concerns that make this one not quite as cut-and-dried, and it’s not an area where I have an easy answer. Sometimes the more inclusive college campuses will have a transgender day in their Pride Week lineup and all the segregated bathrooms become unisex. I’ve never noticed or heard of any problems happening because of it. Maybe all the nervous nellies just held it in for the day, I dunno. ---
**Author:** ![kmshrader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b782af/32.png) [@kmshrader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kmshrader)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-transgender-dopers/622685/82 "2012-05-25T00:18:39Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > How about just meeting a trans person in real life, and talking to them? If someone wearing a dress introduces herself to you as Tina, use the name she gave you, use feminine pronouns when referring to her, and generally treat her like you’d treat any other woman, and don’t worry about what sort of equipment she’s got between her legs. Not trans, just open-minded, but thanks for this. I’ve had to scroll past much of this thread 'cos I’ve got a low tolerance for aggressive ignorance, but folks like you are fighting the good fight. Thanks! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![cynyc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@cynyc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cynyc)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-transgender-dopers/622685/83 "2012-05-25T00:43:08Z")
Still pissed nobody listened to and commented on that podcast. My expectations are high for Americans and I never learn my lesson. So concerning the topic of wrong body: Except for the unfortunate people who suffer that–who gives a shit? It is what it is. People are born into wrong-sex bodies. Meanwhile, Amerika, the sky is falling… And if anybody outed themselves here I didn’t notice. I save morbid curiosity for serial killers. And I empathize with a gal who is looking for heels in size 14. I have spoken. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-transgender-dopers/622685/84 "2012-05-25T00:51:44Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > This has been an interesting thread. It always amazes me that discrimination and jokes about trans people seems to be the last remaining form of discrimination that is tolerated by everyone as evident by all the “tranny” jokes out there. I don’t think I’ve heard any trans jokes, actually. Are they typically funny, typically mean, or a roughly even mix? Or is this a whoosh? Oh, and props to the people seriously answering the OP. Even if he had been being disingenuous (and I don’t think he was), it’s informative for the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-transgender-dopers/622685/85 "2012-05-25T00:58:31Z")
> [@cynyc](#): > > Still pissed nobody listened to and commented on that podcast. My expectations are high for Americans and I never learn my lesson. Hey, now. It’s not just Americans in this thread. You’re being ignored by an international audience. ---
**Author:** ![cynyc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@cynyc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cynyc)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-transgender-dopers/622685/86 "2012-05-25T01:20:53Z")
Now now. It isn’t a podcast about _me._ > [@Miller](#): > > Hey, now. It’s not just Americans in this thread. You’re being ignored by an international audience. ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-transgender-dopers/622685/87 "2012-05-25T02:39:18Z")
> [@cynyc](#): > > Still pissed nobody listened to and commented on that podcast. My expectations are high for Americans and I never learn my lesson I listened, and I was interested in the different ways the parents decided to deal with the emerging gender awareness being exhibited in the behavior of their children. I have worked with children, and played as a child with children who were bullied for being more like a boy-as a girl, and more like a girl-as a boy. Also I haver dear friends who have lived as one sex, gone through transition, and come out of it feeling right in their own skin. I agreed with the parents who decided to allow their child to be herself, and IMO, the other child who was forced to be socially acceptable, could ultimately repress, and possibly sneak and hide the truth, until it comes out later in life. Oh, and thanks for sharing. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-transgender-dopers/622685/88 "2012-05-25T02:46:42Z")
> [@cynyc](#): > > Still pissed nobody listened to and commented on that podcast. It’s more than 20 minutes long. Most people are not going to be willing to take a break from their SDMB reading to listen to a podcast that long, especially since you didn’t bother to provide much description about what it was or why anyone else would be interested in it. For anyone who is curious but doesn’t have time to listen to the \*All Things Considered \*story “Two Families Grapple with Sons’ Gender Identity: Psychologists Take Radically Different Approaches In Therapy”, a transcript is available here: [Two Families Grapple with Sons' Gender Identity : NPR](http://www.npr.org/2008/05/07/90247842/two-families-grapple-with-sons-gender-preferences) > [@](#): > > My expectations are high for Americans and I never learn my lesson. It must have been awfully disappointing to realize that when you issue a command to a bunch of strangers over the Internet they won’t necessarily obey within a 24 hour period. I doubt this behavior is limited to Americans, though. ---
**Author:** ![kmshrader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b782af/32.png) [@kmshrader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kmshrader)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-transgender-dopers/622685/89 "2012-05-25T04:17:55Z")
> [@cynyc](#): > > Still pissed nobody listened to and commented on that podcast. My expectations are high for Americans and I never learn my lesson. Wow. Not sure that vitriol is really necessary. I listened, but was reading SDMB at the same time, so it didn’t get my full attention. > [@Lamia](#): > > For anyone who is curious but doesn’t have time to listen to the All Things Considered story “Two Families Grapple with Sons’ Gender Identity: Psychologists Take Radically Different Approaches In Therapy”, a transcript is available [here](http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=ce270d38103a630c3181db372a25a052&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fboards.straightdope.com%2Fsdmb%2Fnewreply.php%3Fdo%3Dnewreply%26p%3D15098806&v=1&libid=1337919252658&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.npr.org%2F2008%2F05%2F07%2F90247842%2Ftwo-families-grapple-with-sons-gender-preferences&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fboards.straightdope.com%2Fsdmb%2Fshowthread.php%3Fp%3D15099138&title=Straight%20Dope%20Message%20Board%20-%20Reply%20to%20Topic&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.npr.org%2F2008%2F05%2F07%2F902478...er-preferences&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13379193183351). Thanks very much for that. It let me catch the bits I missed without going back through twenty minutes. ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-transgender-dopers/622685/90 "2012-05-25T05:29:23Z")
> [@heathen\_earthling](#): > > Yet the vast majority of transgender people never get their brains scanned to see if they, as indivduals, exhibit these physiological differences, right? Is it even possible to directly diagnose in a living person? As an occasional hypochondriac, that would bug the hell out of me. It’s a pretty big lifestyle change to base on a brain difference you only _suspect_ yourself of having. > > I’m interested in the medical outliers now. Is there much overlap between a feminine-leaning cismale brain and a masculine-leaning cisfemale brain? Are there any documented transgender people who don’t have the physical brain/body mismatch, or cisgender people who do? Except, of course, things that can be statistically determined don’t always apply to every individual. (I mean, if you believed in actual-factual science, which you clearly don’t, since you’re making this obviously invalid argument . . . ) Amazingly, legal protection exists for black people, even though there’s no way to prove from brain scans whether a person is white or black. And it turns out there’s no special cephalic proof that shows a person’s religion. Hell, even if we limit ourselves to cisgender men and women, the difference is only statistical; it can’t necessarily be demonstrated on any single individual person. So we can obviously toss this line of argumentation entirely. You can’t actually prove anything from brain scans; the best you can do is demonstrate statistical differences. Except, of course, you _personally_ can’t demonstrate anything at all from any number of brain scans, as evidenced by the fact that you haven’t even tried. [QUOTE=John Mace] At any rate, this has turned into a hijack, so I’ll end on that note. Lecture away on the proper etiquette! [/QUOTE] That’s a pretty sad sort of non-response to a valid point. [QUOTE=Martin Hyde] 2. Again, if I asked a biologist to sex two individuals of the species canis lupus familiaris they would not even look at the brains of the animal to do that, because it is unnecessary. Mammalian gender is not defined by brain structure. [/QUOTE] Demonstrate for the class that biologists, as a rule, reject transgenderism in humans. Or else you’re just blowing smoke. (For observers: he is just blowing smoke; he will never present an actual scientific argument to support his point, because there isn’t one.) [QUOTE=Martin Hyde] Again, if I give a biologist a bitch and a dog, how is it going to sex them? Is a Ph.D. biologist going to hem and haw or is he going to say the dog with a vagina, ovaries, and mammary glands is a female and the dog with testes and a penis a male? [/QUOTE] Unless there is a biologist who can’t tell people apart from dogs, this is a non-argument. If there is a biologist who can’t make that distinction, I would opine, personally, that their opinion is probably not reliable. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-transgender-dopers/622685/91 "2012-05-25T12:58:49Z")
What are these female and male brain differences that can’t be detected without an autopsy? There are documented differences in, for example size of the corpus callosum and differences in brain activation during various activities. But obviously these aren’t the differences that Miller and Broomstick are talking about, since they can be detected in living people. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-transgender-dopers/622685/92 "2012-05-25T13:16:59Z")
The study I usually see referred to is “A Sex Difference in the Human Brain and its Relation to Transsexuality” in _Nature_, 378: 68-70 (1995) by By J.-N. Zhou, M.A. Hofman, L.J. Gooren and D.F. Swaab. One of the brain structures highlighted in the study is the central portion of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis in the hypothalamus. With present technology, this can’t be examined closely enough in a living body to distinguish the genders, it’s quite small, but it’s something like 2.5 times bigger in males and transmen than in females and transwomen. No intermediate examples had been found at the time of the study. Unfortunately, the on-line link I used to use for posts like this is no longer working, but there should be enough information on the article in the first paragraph of this post to allow someone to look it up on their on. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-transgender-dopers/622685/93 "2012-05-25T13:22:19Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > Unless there is a biologist who can’t tell people apart from dogs, this is a non-argument. If there is a biologist who can’t make that distinction, I would opine, personally, that their opinion is probably not reliable. Indeed, some species have the ability to transform between genders, or are both genders at once, or can engage in both pathenogenesis and sexual reproduction. It doesn’t mean that there is an absolute parallel between them and us any more than there is between ourselves and dogs. Transgendered brains might be a unique part of our biology. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-transgender-dopers/622685/94 "2012-05-25T13:26:11Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The study I usually see referred to is “A Sex Difference in the Human Brain and its Relation to Transsexuality” in _Nature_, 378: 68-70 (1995) by By J.-N. Zhou, M.A. Hofman, L.J. Gooren and D.F. Swaab. One of the brain structures highlighted in the study is the central portion of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis in the hypothalamus. With present technology, this can’t be examined closely enough in a living body to distinguish the genders, it’s quite small, but it’s something like 2.5 times bigger in males and transmen than in females and transwomen. No intermediate examples had been found at the time of the study. > > Unfortunately, the on-line link I used to use for posts like this is no longer working, but there should be enough information on the article in the first paragraph of this post to allow someone to look it up on their on. So, can I then assume that the more obvious distinctions I mentioned don’t show a link between natural born women and transwomen? ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-transgender-dopers/622685/95 "2012-05-25T13:28:58Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > I don’t think I’ve heard any trans jokes, actually. Are they typically funny, typically mean, or a roughly even mix? Or is this a whoosh? > Oh, and props to the people seriously answering the OP. Even if he had been being disingenuous (and I don’t think he was), it’s informative for the rest of us. Not a whoosh. I hear people quite often say things like, “That girl looks like a tranny.” Or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-transgender-dopers/622685/96 "2012-05-25T13:38:42Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > No, the best cures are the ones that alleviate suffering the best, whether that’s mental, chemical or physical. This isn’t homeopathy where like cures like. You didn’t get what I was saying (or misinterpreted the first half of my post because you didn’t read the second half). I didn’t disagree with what you said in any way. I’m agreeing, and adding that the ‘cure’ presumably tells you something about what the problem is or isn’t. Of course like cures like to some degree. Say I show up at the doctor with a set of symptoms that he thinks are eczema, and none of the eczema treatments work, but antidepressants cure the symptoms completely. Then not only are antidepressants the best cure, but there’s a good chance that the whole thing was psychosomatic to begin with. In the same way, if treatments for mental illness don’t ‘cure’ transgender people, but fixing the body/mind mismatch does - then not only is transitioning the best treatment, but that seems to imply that the original problem was never a mental illness, but a body/mind mismatch. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-transgender-dopers/622685/97 "2012-05-25T13:49:05Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Working from the bottom up: > > If you’re searching for a person who looks like a woman, dresses like a woman, answers to a woman’s name, and uses female pronouns to refer to herself, how useful is it to know that they happen to have a penis? I mean, you’re not going to be putting her penis on the wanted posters, right? Well it might be handy to know if they turn up as John/Jane doe. Particularly if they haven’t had reassignment surgery but otherwise have made no mention of their biological sex to anyone close to them. I watch too much bad TV though. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-transgender-dopers/622685/98 "2012-05-25T13:51:50Z")
Actually, now that I think about it, it might be useful when looking for a suspect as well. A proper gender swap would be an excellent way of ducking the police. I still watch too much tv. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-transgender-dopers/622685/99 "2012-05-25T15:07:35Z")
> [@bouv](#): > > I know you’re not trying to be rude or insensitive, but saying things like “they used to be guys” and “they changed genders” starts you off on the wrong foot. > > They have always been women, they just had the misfortune to be born with the wrong physical characteristics. I know a woman who has stated her transgender situation as, “I used to be a man.” ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-transgender-dopers/622685/100 "2012-05-25T15:51:36Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That’s not a transgender thing, it’s a radical feminist thing. But yeah, it’s pretty dumb We had a similar thing at university in the nineties. Some people in the students union decided that disabled people should be referred to as dysabled as dis- implied they could not do something and dys- implied that they had difficulty doing it. Or something. I never heard a disabled person complain about the word disabled. Frankly, some people just want to be offended and/or love creating rules for others to follow. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-transgender-dopers/622685.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-transgender-dopers/622685.md?page=6)