# Any Truth to This Story about John Kerry and Pres Bush? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 3, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-truth-to-this-story-about-john-kerry-and-pres-bush/552516 "2010-09-03T18:42:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-truth-to-this-story-about-john-kerry-and-pres-bush/552516/61 "2010-09-04T11:38:36Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > And while I’m not keen on the notion of an unfunny joke passing as fact, there were facts aplenty to laugh about. Who’s got a George W joke to tell so we can discuss what fucking moron he was too? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-truth-to-this-story-about-john-kerry-and-pres-bush/552516/62 "2010-09-04T13:57:41Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > > [@Mr.Moto](#): > > > > And while I’m not keen on the notion of an unfunny joke passing as fact, there were facts aplenty to laugh about. > > Who’s got a George W joke to tell so we can discuss what fucking moron he was too? A real story or should it be a lie to balance out the original? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-truth-to-this-story-about-john-kerry-and-pres-bush/552516/63 "2010-09-04T14:25:40Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > **Dio,** while “Philly cheese steaks” in the rest of the country have Swiss cheese, in Philly the standard “cheesteak” uses Cheez Whiz. Ordering it the way he probably ate it at home was picked up on as a failure to connect with Philly voters. Ahem. The accepted cheese are Cheese Whiz, Provolone, and American. Swiss is a never, but you can use chedder slices in a pinch if you must. Anything else is pretty much off the table. Don’t let any of the tourist trap goons from Pat’s and Gino’s try to tell you it is Cheese Wiz or nothing - that is a lie from incompetent cheesesteak makers. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-truth-to-this-story-about-john-kerry-and-pres-bush/552516/64 "2010-09-04T14:30:24Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > So, I heard this story, and I’m wondering if any of it is true. > > See, in the 2008 campaign, the two Vice Presidential nomineees, Joe Biden and Sarah Palin, were both working the same crowd (I think maybe it was someplace like Ohio–some “purple” state anyway). And somebody handed Joe a baby to kiss, but when he went to kiss it, he accidentally kind of bumped it with his nose, and it started to cry. Took the mother a few minutes to calm the poor litle tyke down. > > Then, when they handed the same kid to Sarah Palin, instead of kissing it, she devoured it bones and all. > > So, I’m just wondering if any of this is a true story? And if so, what does it say about the respective political philosophies of the two parties? Hey, anyone stupid enough to hand their kid over to a MAMA GRIZZLY has that coming! ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-truth-to-this-story-about-john-kerry-and-pres-bush/552516/65 "2010-09-04T15:35:15Z")
The story as recited in the OP is one of those stories that is so pat, so formulated, so over-the-top clean-cut stereotypical that I have trouble understanding how any adult would assume it might be true. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-truth-to-this-story-about-john-kerry-and-pres-bush/552516/66 "2010-09-04T15:38:36Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The story as recited in the OP is one of those stories that is so pat, so formulated, so over-the-top clean-cut stereotypical that I have trouble understanding how any adult would assume it might be true. So why do you suppose so many people tell it and believe it? Or as \*\*Shodan \*\*suggested, why do/did liberals believe the Bush National Guard debacle? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-truth-to-this-story-about-john-kerry-and-pres-bush/552516/67 "2010-09-04T16:15:44Z")
Because its all true. I am perfectly at ease with saying that CBS/Rather screwed the pooch royally by accepting documents with a shaky provenance as actual documents. But so what? The only thing that shows is that perhaps his commanding officer did not express documented contempt for the young Mr. Bush. I personally knew any number of young men who have given their right testicle to join the National Guard. (Note to Puppy Dopers: in those days, we didn’t send the National Guard overseas on harebrained military adventures.) Young George walked a velvet carpet straight into the Texas Air National Guard. Does anyone still doubt it was due entirely to his father’s position? Or would someone like to make the case that it was due to his extraordinary talents and abilities? I had friends and relatives drafted and sent straight into the shit. But George was exempt, George was privileged. That he is not publicly and bitterly ashamed of that fact is quite enough for me. The rest of it is also damning, but window dressing for the essential fact. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-truth-to-this-story-about-john-kerry-and-pres-bush/552516/68 "2010-09-04T16:36:46Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > > [@RickJay](#): > > > > The story as recited in the OP is one of those stories that is so pat, so formulated, so over-the-top clean-cut stereotypical that I have trouble understanding how any adult would assume it might be true. > > So why do you suppose so many people tell it and believe it? A lot of people are stupid and gullible. A lot of people believe in space aliens abducting humans. That’s stupid. A lot of people believe in ESP. Stupid. A lot of people believe Barack Obama is a Muslim. You know what? They’re stupid. Just because many people believe something does not make it a valid position to hold. **Ignorance isn’t a point of view.** > [@](#): > > Or as \*\*Shodan \*\*suggested, why do/did liberals believe the Bush National Guard debacle? I don’t even know precisely what it is you’re referring to. Bush’s National Guard service has been the subject of fairly complex discussion and investigation and lies and bullshit and accusations. I don’t remember it ever being described in the form of your OP; as a ridiculously fake morality tale. If you can provide an example of the National Guard thing being presented as a silly little story anyone with an IQ above 90 should be able to sniff out as phony, and then present to me evidence that many “liberals” believed it as truth, then I would have to assume that those people are really fucking stupid. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-truth-to-this-story-about-john-kerry-and-pres-bush/552516/69 "2010-09-04T16:40:08Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > > [@emacknight](#): > > > > So why do you suppose so many people tell it and believe it? > > A lot of people are stupid and gullible. > > A lot of people believe in space aliens abducting humans. That’s stupid. A lot of people believe in ESP. Stupid. A lot of people believe Barack Obama is a Muslim. You know what? They’re stupid. > > Just because many people believe something does not make it a valid position to hold. **Ignorance isn’t a point of view.** No, but as **Rand Rover** would say, it is their opinion, regardless of the reasons behind it. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-truth-to-this-story-about-john-kerry-and-pres-bush/552516/70 "2010-09-04T16:48:04Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > (Note to Puppy Dopers: in those days, we didn’t send the National Guard overseas on harebrained military adventures.) As Bill Maher quipped, “back then it was a way to get out, now it’s a way to get in. It’s a dirty trick we’ve played on these kids : they think they signed up for paintball on the week-ends, they wind up in Fallujah !” ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-truth-to-this-story-about-john-kerry-and-pres-bush/552516/71 "2010-09-04T17:18:26Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > > [@foolsguinea](#): > > > > Dude, I’m a collectivist & I’m really bugged by this story–_because it’s the same old trope that a Dem nominee to high office is really stupid._–& a lot of people from GOP subcultures will believe it. The stories people tell about Mondale became the stories they tell about Kerry. Obama’s lucky they think he’s the AntiChrist, because at least they grant him above-average intellect. > > Well, I don’t believe this story. However, I lived through said 2004 election, and while John Kerry wasn’t dumb he certainly was politically inept at times. > > The man made a big show of going to Pat’s in Philadelphia for a cheesesteak (with media present) and then ordered it with Swiss cheese. This is the man who gave a long answer justifying a Senate vote completely unaware of how his opponents could turn the quote to their advantage. He insisted on going windsurfing during the campaign and then saw images of him in Spandex show up in Republican ads, the winds blowing him to and fro. And that’s how conservatives decide who should be president ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-truth-to-this-story-about-john-kerry-and-pres-bush/552516/72 "2010-09-04T17:37:03Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > > [@Mr.Moto](#): > > > > Well, I don’t believe this story. However, I lived through said 2004 election, and while John Kerry wasn’t dumb he certainly was politically inept at times. > > > > The man made a big show of going to Pat’s in Philadelphia for a cheesesteak (with media present) and then ordered it with Swiss cheese. This is the man who gave a long answer justifying a Senate vote completely unaware of how his opponents could turn the quote to their advantage. He insisted on going windsurfing during the campaign and then saw images of him in Spandex show up in Republican ads, the winds blowing him to and fro. > > And that’s how conservatives decide who should be president Nope. Most of the conservatives were going to vote for Bush anyway. It’s the folks in the middle, or those not really aligned with either party that make the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-truth-to-this-story-about-john-kerry-and-pres-bush/552516/73 "2010-09-04T17:46:17Z")
Do you think any of those people actually made their decision based on what kind of cheese Kerry wanted on his cheesesteak? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-truth-to-this-story-about-john-kerry-and-pres-bush/552516/74 "2010-09-04T17:51:47Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Do you think any of those people actually made their decision based on what kind of cheese Kerry wanted on his cheesesteak? I think that was one part of the meme that he was “not in touch with regular folks”. I think it was pretty clear that Mr Moto offered that as just one example, especially since he listed at least one other. Kerry was an easy target in that sense. But my point was that conservatives don’t need an excuse not to vote for a Democrat. Those in the middle do. And let’s face it, Americans aren’t known for being deep political thinkers. I don’t think you would find that hard to agree with. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-truth-to-this-story-about-john-kerry-and-pres-bush/552516/75 "2010-09-04T17:59:33Z")
On the one hand, in my time working as a short-order cook in Philadelphia, I never once saw anyone order a cheesesteak with Swiss (we could have done it if someone asked for it; it just never happened). On the other hand, though, I’ve seen them with enough other cheeses that Swiss hardly seems heretical. It’d be a much bigger deal if he had ordered it with lettuce or something. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-truth-to-this-story-about-john-kerry-and-pres-bush/552516/76 "2010-09-04T18:14:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > Do you think any of those people actually made their decision based on what kind of cheese Kerry wanted on his cheesesteak? > > I think that was one part of the meme that he was “not in touch with regular folks”. I think it was pretty clear that Mr Moto offered that as just one example, especially since he listed at least one other. Kerry was an easy target in that sense. > > But my point was that conservatives don’t need an excuse not to vote for a Democrat. Those in the middle do. And let’s face it, Americans aren’t known for being deep political thinkers. I don’t think you would find that hard to agree with. I don’t buy for a second that anyone gave a shit what kind of cheese Kerry put on his cheeseteak. The meme that he was seen an “elitist” (as if Bush wasn’t) came from the right wing media. True, a lot of voters acn be very shallow and arbitrary, but they’re not THAT shallow. I think Kerry was hurt primarily by the swiftboat smears and by the gay marriage referendums. Those are the things that get shallow thinkers to change their votes, not how they order their cheesesteak. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-truth-to-this-story-about-john-kerry-and-pres-bush/552516/77 "2010-09-04T18:21:37Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t buy for a second that anyone gave a shit what kind of cheese Kerry put on his cheeseteak. The meme that he was seen an “elitist” (as if Bush wasn’t) came from the right wing media. True, a lot of voters acn be very shallow and arbitrary, but they’re not THAT shallow. I think Kerry was hurt primarily by the swiftboat smears and by the gay marriage referendums. Those are the things that get shallow thinkers to change their votes, not how they order their cheesesteak. You could be right. At any rate, we’re both in agreement that it isn’t the way conservatives decide who should be president, per **Dan Blather’s** post. I’m not even sure if he meant that seriously anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-truth-to-this-story-about-john-kerry-and-pres-bush/552516/78 "2010-09-04T18:24:16Z")
Now I want a cheesesteak. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-truth-to-this-story-about-john-kerry-and-pres-bush/552516/79 "2010-09-04T18:38:48Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Now I want a cheesesteak. And I want mine with Swiss Cheese. But then, I put Swiss Cheese on any sandwich I’m having with cheese. Does that make me an elitist? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-truth-to-this-story-about-john-kerry-and-pres-bush/552516/80 "2010-09-04T19:59:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > I don’t buy for a second that anyone gave a shit what kind of cheese Kerry put on his cheeseteak. The meme that he was seen an “elitist” (as if Bush wasn’t) came from the right wing media. True, a lot of voters acn be very shallow and arbitrary, but they’re not THAT shallow. I think Kerry was hurt primarily by the swiftboat smears and by the gay marriage referendums. Those are the things that get shallow thinkers to change their votes, not how they order their cheesesteak. > > You could be right. At any rate, we’re both in agreement that it isn’t the way conservatives decide who should be president, per **Dan Blather’s** post. I’m not even sure if he meant that seriously anyway. It’s not the way conservatives decide, but it’s the way they hope _swing voters_ will decide. I suppose both sides do it – try to create some phony issue out of nothing and act like it matters, not because they sincerely believe themselves that it matters, but because they hope that others will – maybe the thing with George Bush Sr. seeming puzzled by a supermarket scanner would be an example of left doing it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-truth-to-this-story-about-john-kerry-and-pres-bush/552516.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-truth-to-this-story-about-john-kerry-and-pres-bush/552516.md?page=5)