Any truth to this World War 2 claim?

Factual Questions
21

Some people are talking apples while others are talking pears.

If you define World War II in its accepted sense as the conflict which began with the declaration of war by Britan and France in 1939 and ended with the surrender of Japan in 1945 then clearly you will count only the casualties sustained within those dates.

If you define World War II in another, purely arbitrary sense, beginning and ending at a time of your own choosing, you will arrive at a different figure for casualties.

I took the OP to be using the term WWII in its accepted definition. If so, there is a definite answer, which I believe has been given above.

If he used the term more loosely then there are a thousand different answers, each of them equally valid and depending on the dates chosen for the conflict.

22

That advance by Germany caused France, the UK, Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, Poland, the Soviet Union, and a dozen other countries to go to war.

Let’s review. Japan vs. China. Two countries next to each other fighting a war. Not a world war.

Germany invading Poland. Numerous countries from four continents going to war. Definitely a world war.

23

The date when WWII started is not a fact, but it is a consensus among historians, teachers, journalists, and just about everybody else in the world. Using one consensus date makes it possible for everybody to understand what everybody is talking about when the term “WWII” is used.

You don’t have to use the consensus date. However, it would be at the least common courtesy to therefore specify exactly when you think “WWII” started and why, and what you think is included in the umbrella term “WWII” and why (and what isn’t). Without that, nobody can determine whether what you are saying is true or not or even meaningful or not.

24

My point remains. Why is it considered a World War just because it’s being fought in Europe? The entire European theatre of war was smaller than the area where the war was being fought in Asia.

In 1941, when Japan and Germany declared war on the United States, the United Kingdom, and various other powers, it was the first time that the existing war actually encompassed the entire world. Some people seem to be saying that the war being fought between Germany and other European countries that started in 1939 should be counted as this same war, because it eventually joined in with it. Fair enough. But if that’s the case why isn’t the war that was being fought between Japan and various Asian countries since 1937 also considered as part of the war that it eventually joined into? Why do you backdate the German war and not backdate the Japanese war?

If the definition of a world war requires multiple powers be involved, didn’t World War II end after the fall of France, when the war was essentially down to Germany and the United Kingdom?

I’m assuming that the posters who are accusing me of picking some arbitrary point to mark the beginning of the war are aware that their own claims are equally arbitrary.

25

That’s hardly true. I’m betting there’s more people in the world who would say WWII started in 1937 then there are people who’ll say it started in 1939 or 1941.

As I said above, I am using the consensus date. But to answer your other question (which I thought I already had) I define World War II as the war that started in various ongoing regional conflicts that eventually embraced the majority of the world. Conflicts like Spain and Ethiopia don’t count because those wars ended without leading to a wider war. Conflicts like the German invasion of Poland and the Japanese invasion of China triggered larger wars that eventually amalgamated into a single global conflict.

26

‘In Europe’ above means WW2 was fought in Poland, Belgium, France, Holland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Russia, Italy and Germany (to name a few). There was also conflict in Africa and the Far East.
‘In Asia’ above means there was a war between Japan and China.

One is a World War, one isn’t.

You don’t think there’s support for our definition of WW2?
:smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

27

‘In Europe’ above means WW2 was fought in Poland, Belgium, France, Holland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Russia, Italy and Germany (to name a few). There was also conflict in Africa and the Far East.
‘In Asia’ above means there was a war between Japan and China.

One is a World War, one isn’t.

You don’t think there’s support for our definition of WW2?
:smiley:

Please give a cite for this.
(In particular, do list the people who think WW2 began in 1941. :rolleyes: )

28

Ok, let’s go over this very slowly. Germany invades Poland. As a result a dozen nations from 5 continents go to war. This is a world war. Japan and China go to war. Only two neighboring countries are fighting. This is not a world war.

29

I didn’t say when I thought World War Two began but I did say that this event was supposed to have happened in 1937 in post #3 above.
This has turned into a debate over whether you can include the Sino-Japanese war(s) as part of World War II so to change my question, is there evidence there were German combantant casualties during the S-J war(s)?

Thanks again,
An Gadaí

30

No, you’re just proving my point. It’s an arbitrary distinction to claim that the war in Europe including the conflict in the Far East but the war in the Far East didn’t include the conflict in Europe. It’s an arbitrary distinction to claim that the German invasion of Poland resulted in five continents going to war but the Japanese invasion of China didn’t (especially when it was the Japanese not the Germans who bombed Pearl Harbor).

The only two countries that went to war on September 1, 1939 were Germany and Poland. The only way that would count as a World War is because a bunch of other countries eventually joined in and fought battles in other places. The only two countries that went to war on July 7, 1937 were Japan and China but other countries eventually joined in and fought battles in other places. If you claim that the Battle of Guadalcanal was part of the same war that started when Germany invaded Poland, then I can equally well claim that the Battle of the Bulge was part of the same war that began when Japan invaded China.

There’s 1,321,851,888 people in China and 38,518,241 people in Poland. Are you still confident you’re going to win this poll?

Why, the same kind of people who claim that WWII didn’t start in 1937 of course. People who believe wars aren’t important until their country is fighting in it.

31

There are 5,000,000,000 people not in China who will vote the other way. Do you really want to play this game?

32

Why is this so hard for you to understand? One week after Germany invaded Poland they were at war with a dozen countries in 5 continents. Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you just have no idea what you are talking about?

33

And you assume they all agree with you because…

I completely understand what you’re saying. And I disagree with it. Just because the British Empire declared war jointly doesn’t mean there was a war being fought on five continents. The actual war was confined to Europe and North Africa.

34

And global naval war as indicated by the Royal Navy sweeping up German merchant ships across the globe and the Battle of the River Plate off Uruguay, a long way from Europe. Just look at a map of the British and French empires in 1939. Their going to war meant that the bulk of the population and territory of the world were at war, affected by wartime regulations and controls, movement of forces and restriction of trade. People from Chad and Cambodia to Uganda and Belize were affected.

35

If you want to get really pedantic about it, there’s a school of thought- and one that I’m quite partial to- that says that World War II was simply a continuation of WWI, with a 20 year Tea Break between innings.

The thing Little Nemo is failing to take into account is that very few people in Europe actually cared about the Japanese and the Chinese fighting each other. As long as they didn’t make a habit of shooting at the Europeans or threatening their interests in the area too much, the Sino-Japanese war could have dragged on for decades with little or no intervention from the European Powers, except to flog arms and materiel to whichever side they felt it most politically expedient to supply.

I’d argue that the Spanish Civil War is a better candidate for being the Overture for WWII, as it gave a lot of people- including Messrs. Hitler & Stalin- some ideas about how to best wage a “Modern” war, and by the time it was over it was pretty clear that the Wermacht’s Panzers were being fuelled up for a jaunt to Poland and, time permitting, Belgium and France. The events in China at the time were a side-show; and entirely separate war that only became part of WWII because the Japanese decided their plans for a Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere weren’t going to get past the Planning stage with the British Empire and the US hanging around the area…

36

There were treaties that caused the German invasion of Poland to start WW2.
Who apart from Japan and China cared about their war, or got involved because of it?
What did the Japanese bombing Pearl harbour have to do with their previous war with China?

The UK and France declared war on Germany on 3 September 1939, because of the invasion of Poland.

According to you, that two days counts as ‘other countries eventually joined in’. Eventually? :confused:
Of course the Polish invasion triggered WW2!

What? :confused:
Who allied with China?
Who told their population they were going to war because of the japan-China conflict?

Have you got **any evidence ** that **any of these people ** think Japan-China started WW2?
Are you going to take a poll?
In answer to my demand for a cite about the number of people who support your position, all you can do is give population figures? :smack: :smiley:

37

I’ve just noticed this. Confined to Europe and North Africa?!
Have a free history lesson (these are all from here):

Fact File : Syrian Campaign
8 June to 12 July 1941

Theatre: North Africa and Middle East
Area: Syria
Players: Allies: Two brigades of the Free French Infantry Division; British 6th Infantry Division based in northern Palestine; 7th Australian Infantry Division based in Haifa; 5th Indian Infantry Brigade, 10th Indian Infantry Division and Habforce, based in Iraq. Vichy France: Armée du Levant under General Henri Dentz; Lebanon Command and South Syria Command, including 6th Regiment, French Foreign Legion
Outcome: Operation Exporter, the Allied invasion of Syria, was a costly and bitter campaign but it eliminated a potential threat to the Allied rear.

Fact File : Burma Campaign
December 1941 to May 1945

Theatre: South East Asia
Area: Burma (now also known as Myanmar)
Players: [At the end of the campaign] Allies: 14th Army under General William Slim, which included 4th Corps under General Geoffrey Scoones and 15th Corps under General Philip Christison; 17th Indian Division under Major-General JG Smyth; 7th Armoured Brigade; 3rd Indian Division (Chindits), including British 70th Division. Japan: 15th Army under Lt-General S Iida and later under Lieutenant General Renya Mutagachi; 28th Army under General Sakurai (three divisions); 33rd Army under General Honda (two divisions).
Outcome: Early Japanese victories, eventually reversed by a combination of British Empire, US and Chinese forces.

Note: Most operations had to be confined to the ‘dry seasons’ between November and May.

Fact File : Fall of Hong Kong
8 to 26 December 1941

Theatre: Pacific
Area: Kowloon Peninsula (China) and Hong Kong Island.
Players: Allies: Hong Kong Garrison (six battalions). Japan: 12 battalions.
Outcome: With overwhelming numbers and air cover, the Japanese forces advanced rapidly through the Kowloon Peninsula to capture Hong Kong Island within 18 days.

Fact File : Fall of Singapore and Malaya
8 December 1941 to 15 February 1942

Theatre: Pacific
Area: Singapore and Malaya
Players: Allies: British, Malay, Indian and Australian forces under Lieutenant General Arthur Percival. Japanese: 25th Army under General Tomoyuki Yamashita.
Outcome: The Japanese advanced rapidly through Malaya to Singapore and took both with minimal casualties, capturing thousands of Allied troops and civilians.

Fact File : Invasion of British Borneo
15 December 1941 to 1 April 1942

Theatre: Pacific
Location: Borneo
Players: Allies: 2nd Battalion, 15th Punjab Regiment; Sarawak Rangers. Japan: 35th Infantry Brigade Headquarters under Maj-Gen Kawaguchi; 124th Infantry Regiment.
Outcome: British Borneo was captured by Japanese forces.

Fact File : Battle of Java Sea
27 February to 1 March 1942

Theatre: Pacific
Area: Java Sea (between Java and Borneo)
Players: Allies: ABDA Eastern Strike Force (five cruisers and nine destroyers) commanded by the Dutch Rear Admiral Karel Doorman. Japan: 2nd and 4th Destroyer Flotillas and 5th Cruiser Squadron.
Outcome: A Japanese naval victory that enabled the invasion of Java.

Fact File : Indian Ocean Raid
Late March 1942 to 9 April 1942

Theatre: South East Asia
Area: Ceylon (now Sri Lanka) and the Indian Ocean.
Players: Allies: Naval force under Admiral James Somerville (three carriers and five battleships). Japanese: Task force under Vice Admiral Nagumo (five carriers and four battleships).
Outcome: The Japanese destroyed several Allied ships and planes, but then retired as planned, and the island of Ceylon remained under British control.

Fact File : Madagascar Captured
5 May to 5 November 1942

Theatre: Indian Ocean
Area: The island of Madagascar, off the south east coast of Africa.
Players: Allies: British 13th, 17th and 29th Infantry Brigades, later reinforced by 22nd East African Brigade Group; South African 7th Motorised Brigade and Northern Rhodesia 27th Infantry Brigade No. 5 Commando (Northern Rhodesia is now known as Zambia); Royal Navy forces including HMS Illustrious, HMS Indomitable, HMS Ramillies and HMS Devonshire. France: Vichy French garrison (around 8,000 troops); eight coastal batteries, two armed merchant cruisers, five submarines and a handful of aircraft.
Outcome: Allied forces gained control of the island, which had been in the hands of the French Vichy government.

Note: Operation Ironclad was the first large amphibious assault made by British forces during World War Two.

Fact File : British Enter Rangoon
14 April to 6 May 1945

Theatre: South East Asia
Area: Southern Burma
Players: Allies: British 4th Corps, commanded by Lieutenant General Frank Messervy; British 33rd Corps, commanded by Lieutenant General Montagu Stopford; Elements of 15th Corps and Gurkhas. Japan: 15th Army and elements of 28th and 33rd Armies.
Outcome: Rapid British advance south through Burma was reinforced with Operation Dracula, the amphibious assault on the south Burma coast that liberated Rangoon on 2 May.

Apart from all this, there was fighting in the Pacific (this is an ocean and is also not in Europe or North Africa) plus there were two bombs dropped on Japan. You may have heard of this. It was part of WW2.

38

No, I think this thread is making that pretty obvious.

This question alone indicates you have virtually no knowledge of the Asian theatre of war. As for the rest of your posts, they simply repeat points that others made and I have already addressed.

39

To be fair, the Burma, Hong Kong, Singapore, Burma, Malaysia, Ceylon, and Pacific wars you’ve listed have a lot more to do with the China Japan war than the German invasion of Poland.

40

Actually, the major point made that you have not addressed is whether the historians in China treat the invasion of Japan as the start of WWII or whether they treat it as another precursor, one of many, to the wider global conflict that is usually termed WWII. Do they say it or are you just making the claim for them?

BTW, saying that there were many precursors to the war but that WWII started in 1939 is not making any value judgment about the lack of worth of individual people in China, and Spain, and Ethiopia, and Czechoslovakia, and the many other places in which people died between 1918 and 1939. I categorically resent any insinuation that I am doing so.