# Any validity to this? (H2O--\>HHO power) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 17, 2006, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-validity-to-this-h2o-hho-power/380805 "2006-11-17T06:27:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-validity-to-this-h2o-hho-power/380805/1 "2006-11-17T06:27:51Z")
[Here’s](http://www.jibjab.com/jokebox/jokebox/jibjab/id/181595/jokeid/36465) a link to a clip of a news story about a man generating power from a water base. Yes, I know the urban legend about the magic gas pill, etc, etc…, which is my question here. I’m not very scientifically adept, is there something to this, or should the guy get props for putting one over on the local news channel? ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-validity-to-this-h2o-hho-power/380805/2 "2006-11-17T06:29:19Z")
COmplete bullshit. I don’t even have to look at the link to know this. It is \*_impossible_ to get more energy out of water than you put into it. Yes, there are ways to seperate it into hydrogen and oxygen and then burn that, but as said, you don’t get as much energy out of that as you have to put into it. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-validity-to-this-h2o-hho-power/380805/3 "2006-11-17T06:56:41Z")
[QUOTE=bouv] It is \*_impossible_ to get more energy out of water than you put into it. Yes, there are ways to seperate it into hydrogen and oxygen and then burn that, but as said, you don’t get as much energy out of that as you have to put into it. [/QUOTE] Well, I kinda figured that, but even so, is that useless? Could what you get have be beneficial in certain circumstances, even if it costs you energy to produce. Hmm. I’m tired, I’m not putting this clearly. These are the lines I’m thinking along: Suppose you perfected a fusion reaction that was horribly inefficient. Say it produced less energy than gasoline…but once the reaction was started, you could fuel it with anything, and the by product was water. Such a reaction might be of minimal use as a power source, but be enormously valuable as a way of disposing of dangerous waste, see what I mean? In this case, if you could produce a clean burning fuel from water, even if the process of creating that fuel used more energy than the end result generated, might it still be useful because it burns cleanly? If you used non polluting energy sources to create the fuel in the first place-wind, solar, tidal, nuclear, etc.., and used the resulting water based fuel to replace gasoline burning engines that pollute, would that not be beneficial to the environment, including that big bad boogie man called global warming that we’re all supposed to be so worried about? I don’t know. I really don’t. So I’m asking. ---
**Author:** ![lazybratsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ba8739/32.png) [@lazybratsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lazybratsche)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-validity-to-this-h2o-hho-power/380805/4 "2006-11-17T07:17:56Z")
Well, all this talk of a “Hydrogen Economy” pretty much is the same as what you’re describing. It assumes that you’re using some other source of power to generate hydrogen by splitting water. That hydrogen, then, can be used as a very clean and efficient way of storing power. There are definitely technical hurdles, mostly with the storage and transport of that hydrogen. People are uncomfortable with the idea of storing an explosive gas at very high pressures, and then putting this in cars… Look up “Hydrogen Economy” if you want to learn more. ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-validity-to-this-h2o-hho-power/380805/5 "2006-11-17T21:22:15Z")
I wonder what HHO is. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-validity-to-this-h2o-hho-power/380805/6 "2006-11-17T21:44:43Z")
[QUOTE=Christopher] I wonder what HHO is. [/QUOTE] That would be hydrogen hydroxide, also known as dihydrogen monoxide (DHMO). It’s very dangerous stuff. See [http://www.dhmo.org/](http://www.dhmo.org/) for details. ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-validity-to-this-h2o-hho-power/380805/7 "2006-11-17T22:12:32Z")
[QUOTE=engineer\_comp\_geek] That would be hydrogen hydroxide, also known as dihydrogen monoxide (DHMO). It’s very dangerous stuff. See [http://www.dhmo.org/](http://www.dhmo.org/) for details. [/QUOTE] Umm, your link bills itself as an unbiased source, but when I see a section in the FAQ titled “What is the link between Dihydrogen Monoxide and school violence?” and they quote an “award winning scientist” in another section, I don’t know. I’m sure you’re more familiar with DHMO than I am (wouldn’t be hard); is their information legit? ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-validity-to-this-h2o-hho-power/380805/8 "2006-11-17T22:18:01Z")
[QUOTE=PoorYorick] Umm, your link bills itself as an unbiased source, but when I see a section in the FAQ titled “What is the link between Dihydrogen Monoxide and school violence?” and they quote an “award winning scientist” in another section, I don’t know. I’m sure you’re more familiar with DHMO than I am (wouldn’t be hard); is their information legit? [/QUOTE] Um… you _do_ know that DHMO is a parody, right? They’re decribing water as a Dangerous Chemical. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-validity-to-this-h2o-hho-power/380805/9 "2006-11-17T22:24:01Z")
[QUOTE=PoorYorick] I’m sure you’re more familiar with DHMO than I am (wouldn’t be hard); is their information legit? [/QUOTE] Dihydrogen monoxide is a well known ‘fancy pants’ name for water. ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-validity-to-this-h2o-hho-power/380805/10 "2006-11-17T22:24:11Z")
[QUOTE=Sunspace] Um… you _do_ know that DHMO is a parody, right? They’re decribing water as a Dangerous Chemical. [/QUOTE] Yes, dammit, I did, and I’m insulted that you would insinuate otherwise. What idiot _wouldn’t_ . . . _No. No, I didn’t. I’m at work and just glanced at it . . . Criminy, I’ve been wooshed. I’m so embarrassed._ ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-validity-to-this-h2o-hho-power/380805/11 "2006-11-17T22:30:28Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m sure you’re more familiar with DHMO than I am (wouldn’t be hard); is their information legit? Every single thing on that web page is 100% factually correct. Read it very carefully. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-validity-to-this-h2o-hho-power/380805/12 "2006-11-17T22:39:59Z")
[QUOTE=lazybratsche] Well, all this talk of a “Hydrogen Economy” pretty much is the same as what you’re describing. It assumes that you’re using some other source of power to generate hydrogen by splitting water. [/QUOTE] The hydrogen economy doesn’t get hydrogen by the electrolysis of water. It gets it by the [steam reformation of natural gas](http://www.hydrogentrade.com/production/). Much cheaper. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-validity-to-this-h2o-hho-power/380805/13 "2006-11-17T22:43:27Z")
There was an episode of _Scientific American Frontiers_ that showed a program being tested in Iceland. At a gas station was a separate building that drew electricity from the power grid and produced hydrogen from water. That hydrogen could be dispensed to vehicles built to use it instead of gasoline. It doesn’t produce any energy (and since conversions are never 100% efficient, some is lost), but it provides a means to take energy from a fixed site and use it in a moving vehicle. I watched that clip. I can’t tell if the inventory guy is a crackpot or if the news reporters are beyond stupid. ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-validity-to-this-h2o-hho-power/380805/14 "2006-11-17T22:55:08Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos] Every single thing on that web page is 100% factually correct. Read it very carefully. [/QUOTE] OK, already. Jeez, and I took four semesters of chemistry. I swear, this is the last time I post from work. ---
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-validity-to-this-h2o-hho-power/380805/15 "2006-11-17T23:37:52Z")
I have heard something about the technology referred to in the original post, but I can’t speak to it. Have a look at the original link. Rob ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2006, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-validity-to-this-h2o-hho-power/380805/16 "2006-11-18T00:13:22Z")
[QUOTE=Robot Arm] At a gas station was a separate building that drew electricity from the power grid and produced hydrogen from water. That hydrogen could be dispensed to vehicles built to use it instead of gasoline. It doesn’t produce any energy (and since conversions are never 100% efficient, some is lost), but it provides a means to take energy from a fixed site and use it in a moving vehicle. [/QUOTE] [Don Lancaster](http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf) Says it better that I ever could, but here is a summary: Electrical power is about the single most expensive way to buy energy there is. It can only be created at the expense of another source, it is highly volatile (must be consumed at nearly the same time it is generated) and requires extensive capital investment and infrastructure. Decomposition of water by electrolysis effiency is normally less than 50% efficient. [The best claim](http://alteng.blogspot.com/2006/03/cheap-hydrogen-fuel.html) I could find was a production cost of $3 /kg (~1gal gasoline equivilent) energy. Note that that is a projection, not an achieved value, and it is cost to produce, not a selling price. Acheived production cost via electrolysis is around $8/kg. If you have a Kilowatt hr. of electricity available, the best way to convert it to hydrogen is to sell it, use the profit to buy methane, (natural gas) and reform that into hydrogen. ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2006, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-validity-to-this-h2o-hho-power/380805/17 "2006-11-18T00:33:52Z")
Thank you engineer\_comp\_geek, as a chemist I only hear that dihydrogen monoxide joke once a week. They think they are clever every time. I’m suspecting that all he’s doing is electrolysing water into H2 and O2 then using that as the fuel to power his torch. His glorefied HHO is probably just H2 and O2. Technically, the water isn’t the fuel, the electricity is. It has no applicability toward automobiles since you need energy to split water into H2 and O2. You may as well just run your car with that energy directly. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2006, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-validity-to-this-h2o-hho-power/380805/18 "2006-11-18T00:56:26Z")
[QUOTE=Kevbo] [Don Lancaster](http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf) Says it better that I ever could, but here is a summary:… [/QUOTE] All of that may be true, but the station I described [does](http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techinnovations/2003-04-25-hydro-station_x.htm) [exist](http://spas.about.com/library/weekly/aa060803d1.htm), nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2006, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-validity-to-this-h2o-hho-power/380805/19 "2006-11-18T01:08:56Z")
[QUOTE=Christopher] Thank you engineer\_comp\_geek, as a chemist I only hear that dihydrogen monoxide joke once a week. They think they are clever every time. I’m suspecting that all he’s doing is electrolysing water into H2 and O2 then using that as the fuel to power his torch. His glorefied HHO is probably just H2 and O2. Technically, the water isn’t the fuel, the electricity is. It has no applicability toward automobiles since you need energy to split water into H2 and O2. You may as well just run your car with that energy directly. [/QUOTE] Does any of that explain the alleged “coolness” of his flame, when used on flesh? I’m actually kind of curious. I never laugh off anything that someone is willing to have subjected to public scrutiny, at least at first. Who knows? Maybe the guy has put together something so obvious that everyone figured it was impossible. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Octagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@The\_Octagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Octagon)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2006, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-validity-to-this-h2o-hho-power/380805/20 "2006-11-18T01:38:13Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] I’m not very scientifically adept, is there something to this, or should the guy get props for putting one over on the local news channel? [/QUOTE] It’s the latter. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-validity-to-this-h2o-hho-power/380805.md?page=2)