# Any World War ONE secrets that have yet to surface??? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 20, 2001, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-world-war-one-secrets-that-have-yet-to-surface/51030 "2001-01-20T16:57:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![stuyguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@stuyguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuyguy)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2001, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-world-war-one-secrets-that-have-yet-to-surface/51030/1 "2001-01-20T16:57:37Z")
A couple of years ago 60 Minutes did a piece on the US government’s kneejerk tendency to clasify everything (alright, not _everything_) it learns or creates as “secret,” usually for reasons of national security. NY Senator Patrick Moynahan, a staunch advocate of open government who was their main interviewee, claimed that practice was absurd, bad for democracy, etc. _(Ed note: Way to go Pat!)_ In the course of the interview, the senator was asked how old was the oldest secret the government still had under wraps. IIRC, he responded it was from 1918 (or 1917) – presumably relating to WWI. Anyone know, has this 80+ year old secret been declassified, and if so, what was it? ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2001, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-world-war-one-secrets-that-have-yet-to-surface/51030/2 "2001-01-20T17:18:40Z")
Not directly related to WWI but certainly part of its consequencies, the role of the British Secret Service as regards trying to undermine the Bolshevik revolution has never been fully revealed. This might include assassinations for starters. Apparently one British recruited agent, Rosenblum ?, sereved as inspiration for Ian Fleming’s James Bond character.It was a close run thing by the few rumours and documentaries that have been produced. How about what happened to the Lusitania ? There have been plenty of conspiracy theories about this event. There were several mutinies amongst troops of most stripes but the whole extent has not been revealed. What is in the public domain took a great deal of research to reveal. ---
**Author:** ![stuyguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@stuyguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuyguy)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2001, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-world-war-one-secrets-that-have-yet-to-surface/51030/3 "2001-01-20T17:43:17Z")
**cas,** does your post contain answers or speculation? **If it’s speculation, please refrain from posting it here – everybody posting their theories got the _WWII Secrets_ thread shipped off to IMHO, a fate I do not wish this thread to share.** So, to reinterate, I’m only interested in the secret(s) that Moynahan was actually talking about. (And if they’ve never been declassified, confirmation of that fact would be appreciated too.) Thanks all. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2001, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-world-war-one-secrets-that-have-yet-to-surface/51030/4 "2001-01-20T18:19:41Z")
> [@](#): > > How about what happened to the Lusitania ? There have been plenty of conspiracy theories about this event. True, and also the _Britannic_, _Titanic_’s sister ship. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2001, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-world-war-one-secrets-that-have-yet-to-surface/51030/5 "2001-01-21T12:14:33Z")
**Stuyguy** By definition secrets are classified material. Fact - the SIS, British secret service did try to undermine the Bolshevik revolution. Fact, the details are still classified, I reckon that qualifies as a WWI secret that remains to be revealed. Fact - there were mutinies amongst the French, German and British armies. Fact, the full extent has not been revealed but some information, especially the French and German mutinies are well documented.The British are still reluctant to say much although certain incidents are well known. Fact - there are conspiracy theories regarding Lusitania. If it pleases you I can dig up cites for all of these or you could do some research yourself. Since there is no link to Moynahan or referance to what you mean I believe I’ll just have to change the batteries in my crystal ball. ---
**Author:** ![stuyguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@stuyguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuyguy)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2001, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-world-war-one-secrets-that-have-yet-to-surface/51030/6 "2001-01-21T17:02:37Z")
**casdave,** please don’t get in a huff. I think you mistook my second post. I did not mean that your four secrets were based on speculation. I meant that you were speculating _that one or more of them were the one(s) that Moynahan was refering to._ Again, I’m not looking for answers to the question “What _do Dopers think_ they were hiding from Pat Moynahan?” I am looking for answers to “What _were_ they hiding from Pat Moynahan?” Here’s why I suspect that “Moynahan’s secret” may have come to light after the telecast. The 60 Minutes piece made the government spokespersons look absurd defending their policy of taking secrecy to wild extremes. Therefore I wouldn’t be surprised if, soon after the broadcast, 1. the beaurocrats had a change of heart and declassified a whole bunch of musty, dusty, harmless secrets, or… 2. the beaurocrats got so tired of being hounded by people and the press about “the 1918 secret on 60 Minutes” that they simply declassified it to shut them up. (“There. Now you know: Sgt. York liked little boys. Happy now?”) Or… 3. Moynahan’s efforts – bolstered by public outcry from the show – got the official policy changed, thereby declassifying many creaky old secrets. So again, anybody know what it was??? ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2001, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-world-war-one-secrets-that-have-yet-to-surface/51030/7 "2001-01-21T18:18:36Z")
Now I see, I made the mistake of just posting a reply to the title of the OP rather than reading the OP itself. ---
**Author:** ![stuyguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@stuyguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuyguy)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2001, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-world-war-one-secrets-that-have-yet-to-surface/51030/8 "2001-01-22T16:31:42Z")
No sweat, **cas.** ---
**Author:** ![TwoBuyFour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/76d3ee/32.png) [@TwoBuyFour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwoBuyFour)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2001, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-world-war-one-secrets-that-have-yet-to-surface/51030/9 "2001-01-22T17:45:40Z")
Maverick: That’s classified, Ma’am. Charlie: Classified? Maverick: Yes. I could tell you, but then I’d have to kill you. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2001, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-world-war-one-secrets-that-have-yet-to-surface/51030/10 "2001-01-22T17:50:49Z")
Mata Hari. Her biographers assert that she was set up by both the French and the Germans and that she never actually spied on anyone. One book says that she had to be executed so the Germans wouldn’t know the French had broken their code, but I believe the documents in her case are still classified. Or missing . . . ---
**Author:** ![Groundskeeper\_Willie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Groundskeeper\_Willie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Groundskeeper_Willie)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2001, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-world-war-one-secrets-that-have-yet-to-surface/51030/11 "2001-01-22T19:41:41Z")
There _is_ one big unanswered question about WWI, and that is: Who knew about the assassination plot in Serejevo beforehand, and when? The official compilations of diplomatic notes for the various nations (published by their respective governments) have clearly all been heavily edited. References are made to letters that are not included, etc. However, the evidence of personal letters, including some from cabinet members, indicated that the Serbian cabinet was aware of the forthcoming assassination weeks in advance, \* and so was the Russian Government.\* The Russian military attache was heavily involved in the plot, and was in close communication with St. Petersburg. I just looked for the references (specific letters, and so on), but cannot find them now. If they turn up I’ll post them. This theory, if true, would explain why Serbia was so opposed to having Austrian authorities follow up various leads they had uncovered, and why Russia was so quick to support Serbia; they both were afraid that their parts in the assassination would quickly come to light. **Disclaimer** this is only a theory - conclusive evidence is not yet available. However, it fits the events of the weeks leading up to the assassination, and the letters written after the fact, better than any other that I know of. Bill ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2001, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-world-war-one-secrets-that-have-yet-to-surface/51030/12 "2001-01-22T20:42:16Z")
In 1999, Moynihan did manage to slide in this “Sense of Congress” statement into H.R. 1555, the Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2000: \*SEC. 309. SENSE OF THE CONGRESS ON CLASSIFICATION AND DECLASSIFICATION ``` It is the sense of Congress that the systematic declassification of records of permanent historic value is in the public interest and that the management of classification and declassification by Executive Branch agencies requires comprehensive reform and additional resources.* ``` Now, a “sense of” statement in a bill carries no weight of law, but it _does_ often act as a rather effective threat. It works very much along the lines of “don’t make us _make you_ do this.” So I suppose that there may yet be some hope for a wave of declassification in the near future. Then again, Moynihan’s outa there, so this threat may well be ignored. In [this piece](http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1997_cr/h970501-moynihan.htm), Moynihan likens secrecy to a form of government regulation. He specifically cites the problem’s origin in the 1917 Espionage Act. Here’s what he has to say: \*Organizational maintenance is nowhere more manifest, and at times ruinous, than in matters of national security. Hoover was present at this creation during the war hysteria of 1917 and 1918 and the anti-radical rumpus that followed, including Attorney General A. Mitchell Palmer’s celebrated raids. The FBI was on to Communist activities fairly early on, and not about to cede territory. Richard Gid Powers has related the struggle with the Office of Strategic Services during World War II–Hoover wanted to go overseas. \* Is this a hint? Is Moynihan implying that the FBI was conducting overseas operations during WWI, which may not have been strictly legal? Or is he implying that Americans were surveiled here at home? Here’s what [http://www.fbi.gov](http://www.fbi.gov) has to say about it: \*August, 1919 The Bureau’s General Intelligence Division formed under direct administrative supervision of J. Edgar Hoover, since 1917 in charge of counter-radical activities as a Special Assistant to the Attorney General in Department of Justice’s War Department.\* “Counter-radical activities” would likely include some very up-close and personal assessments of named individuals–some of whom are likely well-known. And of course, Hoover’s penchant for documenting _everything_ about the individuals who fell under his examination is well known. It’s still just a guess, but I think this might be on the right track: the still-secret files are probably FBI documentation on American citizens, probably prominent ones, and probably not very pretty. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2001, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-world-war-one-secrets-that-have-yet-to-surface/51030/13 "2001-01-22T20:59:57Z")
Oops! I hate it when I screw up like that. Please read my conclusion as “Justice Department documentation,” not “FBI documentation.” It’s hard to imagine Hoover working anywhere else–or _for_ anyone at all. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2001, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-world-war-one-secrets-that-have-yet-to-surface/51030/14 "2001-01-22T21:14:09Z")
Maybe some secrecy is good, in the name of privacy rather than “National Security.” Suppose, for example, that certain prominent citizens were placed under surveillance in 1917, under suspicion of being Communists. Suppose further that the surveillance revealed nothing about a given subject’s political leanings, but did reveal that the subject was an adulterer. Should that fact now be publicly revealed? What if the fact causes pain or embarrassment to the subject’s still-living relatives? Should some matters remain forever “classified?” ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2001, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-world-war-one-secrets-that-have-yet-to-surface/51030/15 "2001-01-22T21:28:11Z")
While there is speculation that the Crown Prince of Serbia MAY have known about the Sarajevo plan beforehand, I don’t believe the thing about Russia coming to Serbia’s aid too quickly. The Crown Prince, Alexander, had been a page at Nicholas’s court-he attended school in Russia, his sister was married to a Romanov prince, he also was supposed to go on a tour to Russia to propose to Grand Duchess Olga if the war hadn’t stopped him. He wrote to Nicholas, asking for Russia’s aid. Russia was the traditional protector of the Slavs, and they were also very much opposed to the growing threat of the German Empire under Prussia’s domination. Russia and Serbia had been allies before. ---
**Author:** ![Silvio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Silvio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silvio)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2001, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-world-war-one-secrets-that-have-yet-to-surface/51030/16 "2001-01-23T06:19:00Z")
Any truth to allegations that German intellegence actively supported the Bolshevek coup to put an anti-war, anti-English and American government in Russia? ---
**Author:** ![warinner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8edcca/32.png) [@warinner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/warinner)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2001, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-world-war-one-secrets-that-have-yet-to-surface/51030/17 "2001-01-23T17:08:59Z")
Silvio wrote: > [@](#): > > Any truth to allegations that German intellegence actively supported the Bolshevek coup to put an anti-war, anti-English and American government in Russia? Like the German High Command providing Lenin free passage across Germany in a sealed train from his exile in Switzerland to Russia to foment revolution against the Kerensky goverment? Andrew Warinner ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2001, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-world-war-one-secrets-that-have-yet-to-surface/51030/18 "2001-01-23T17:58:07Z")
Yep, they sealed the train and delivered him to the Finland station like a shipment of anthrax bacilli…