# Anybody believe this? We're virtual, not real? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2007, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-believe-this-were-virtual-not-real/415756 "2007-08-15T23:40:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![brendon\_small](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brendon_small/32/17101_2.png) [@brendon\_small](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brendon_small)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-believe-this-were-virtual-not-real/415756/41 "2007-08-16T06:57:32Z")
[QUOTE=drachillix] I know what you’re thinking right now…Why didn’t I take the blue pill :smack: [/QUOTE] I think I was heading the wrong direction thinking “No, we’re at the top” or whatever it was from Futurama. Anyways - yes, this guy seems completely off base. I love that his “gut instinct” is newsworthy. The crap that gets published… Brendon Small ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-believe-this-were-virtual-not-real/415756/42 "2007-08-16T07:10:51Z")
Yep. Sunlight and everything. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-believe-this-were-virtual-not-real/415756/43 "2007-08-16T07:39:12Z")
Is this like the argument I heard once?: If it is possible to simulate any universe, then our universe is probably simulated. It is possible to simulate a universe. Therefore our universe is probably simulated. I can not remember how the first premise was supposed to be justified. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-believe-this-were-virtual-not-real/415756/44 "2007-08-16T08:02:18Z")
Does anyone else suddenly want Funyons and Mountain Dew? That article’s like, deep, man… 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-believe-this-were-virtual-not-real/415756/45 "2007-08-16T12:54:51Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] Is this like the argument I heard once?: If it is possible to simulate any universe, then our universe is probably simulated. It is possible to simulate a universe. Therefore our universe is probably simulated. I can not remember how the first premise was supposed to be justified. -FrL- [/QUOTE] Kind of. IIRC Bostrom’s simulation argument doesn’t say that we MUST be living inside a simulation, it only argues for a trichotomy. Either 1. Sentient races can’t simulate reality convincingly (either cos it just can’t be done, or they blow themselves up first, or whatever) OR 1. They invariably choose not to, OR 1. We are almost certainly inside a simulation. I guess the idea is that if it is _at all_ possible and desirable, then any such simulator-species is unlikely to stop with just one sim - they’ll run meeelyons. After all, with our crude Populous, Civilization etc games, we’re already running meeelyons. So if it’s at all possible, the simulated universes vastly outnumber the real universe, so ours is likely to be simulated just from a probabilistic viewpoint. But this isn’t new. And I don’t just mean that people have thought about brains-in-vats before, I mean that Nick Bostrom’s paper is already quite old. So I’m not sure why the NYT’s reporting it. Slow news day I suppose. ETA: huh, turns out it was only printed in 2003, not as old as I thought then. But still… ---
**Author:** ![Potato\_Pancakes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Potato\_Pancakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Potato_Pancakes)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-believe-this-were-virtual-not-real/415756/46 "2007-08-16T15:01:25Z")
I’m confident that if anyone figured out the truth we’d all disappear immediately. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-believe-this-were-virtual-not-real/415756/47 "2007-08-16T15:30:21Z")
[QUOTE=Potato Pancakes] I’m confident that if anyone figured out the truth we’d all disappear immediately. [/QUOTE] Everybody send me ten dollars to stop me figuring it out or the universe gets it. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![aesop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f8ce5/32.png) [@aesop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aesop)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-believe-this-were-virtual-not-real/415756/48 "2007-08-16T15:47:15Z")
Dr. Bostrom’s theory is explored in some detail in Marcus Chown’s very interesting book “The Never-ending Days of Being Dead: Dispatches from the Front Lines of Science”. I can’t comment on the accuracy/relevancy of the scientific theories discussed in the book, but it is a thought-provoking read. I’m going from memory here, but as I recall the simulation argument posits a future where there is \*\*infinite \*\*processing power to run an \*\*infinite \*\*number of simulations and in that context, it seems plausible. And as I recall the theory holds for either an expanding or collapsing universe, because from the perspective of the simulators they can experience a subjective infinity of time. The relevant section of the book is in the chapter (paraphrasing) “Are we all to be resurrected in a computer program at the end of time?” Also discussed is the potential to determine if we are in a simulation. Since an infinite number of simulations would result in occasional errors, we could perhaps detect them if we knew where to look (e.g., the ten trillionth digit of pi, or somesuch). Please don’t press me for details, I am not a physicist. But it’s all in the book, which unfortunately I don’t have with me at the moment. And I’m sure I’ve munged Chown’s lucid writing with my recall. But my main reason for posting was to plug the book – if you are at all interested in the fringes of physics, I recommend it highly. ---
**Author:** ![Astroboy14](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df705f/32.png) [@Astroboy14](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astroboy14)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-believe-this-were-virtual-not-real/415756/49 "2007-08-16T16:09:25Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] Does anyone else suddenly want Funyons and Mountain Dew? That article’s like, deep, man… 🆒 [/QUOTE] Dude, my hands are _HUGE_!! And they can touch _anything_ except themselves! :eek: [sup]Oh… wait…[/sup] ---
**Author:** ![UncleRojelio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unclerojelio/32/3160_2.png) [@UncleRojelio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleRojelio)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-believe-this-were-virtual-not-real/415756/50 "2007-08-16T16:14:54Z")
I’m convinced that **I** am the one living in the simulation and that the rest of you are simply created and destroyed depending on whether I am paying attention in your direction or not. My proof is that whenever I approach a traffic intersection in my car, there are no cars seen crossing my field of view. But as soon as I get to the intersection and look both ways, there are thousands of cars coming from both directions. This happens too often to be mere coincedence. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-believe-this-were-virtual-not-real/415756/51 "2007-08-16T16:20:40Z")
[QUOTE=Defective Detective] “Dr.” Bostrom of Oxford University thinks we exist only inside of someone’s computer simulation, and the reporter on this story seems to think it’s quite plausible. My gut feeling, and it’s nothing more than that, is that there’s a 100% chance he’s an idiot. What do you think? [http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/14/science/14tier.html?em&ex=1187323200&en=2590af4760a81047&ei=5087](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/14/science/14tier.html?em&ex=1187323200&en=2590af4760a81047&ei=5087%0A) (I am unsure this is the correct forum, please move if necessary). [/QUOTE] Why do you think he’s an idiot? He’s posited a plausible picture of the human experience, one that cannot be disproven and makes as much sense as any religious cosmology. Not exactly a new idea, of course. The philosophical idea that what we perceive as reality is an illusion does predate _The Matrix_ by just a tiny bit. Few thousand years. ---
**Author:** ![gladiadelmarre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4af34b/32.png) [@gladiadelmarre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gladiadelmarre)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-believe-this-were-virtual-not-real/415756/52 "2007-08-16T16:35:24Z")
[QUOTE=Nancarrow] I guess the idea is that if it is _at all_ possible and desirable, then any such simulator-species is unlikely to stop with just one sim - they’ll run meeelyons. After all, with our crude Populous, Civilization etc games, we’re already running meeelyons. So if it’s at all possible, the simulated universes vastly outnumber the real universe, so ours is likely to be simulated just from a probabilistic viewpoint. [/QUOTE] If true, it follows that the simulator’s universe is probably a simulation, and so on. As a wise man once said, it’s turtles all the way down. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-believe-this-were-virtual-not-real/415756/53 "2007-08-16T16:45:43Z")
[QUOTE=Potato Pancakes] I’m confident that if anyone figured out the truth we’d all disappear immediately. [/QUOTE] Is it me, or do the stars appear to be goi ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-believe-this-were-virtual-not-real/415756/54 "2007-08-16T17:56:46Z")
[QUOTE=gladiadelmarre] If true, it follows that the simulator’s universe is probably a simulation, and so on. As a wise man once said, it’s turtles all the way down. [/QUOTE] Indeed. I don’t think it can be turtles _all_ the way down, surely it’s got to bottom out somewhere. But there’s certainly room for multiple levels. Cool name by the way. Gosh, how long it’s been since I read Asimov. Must start again! ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-believe-this-were-virtual-not-real/415756/55 "2007-08-16T18:06:42Z")
Moved to Great Debates; or did I? 😃 Gfactor, General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-believe-this-were-virtual-not-real/415756/56 "2007-08-16T18:06:43Z")
Couldn’t you test this theory by looking for glitches? The pseudo-physics of a simulation should be different from the physics of a real world. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-believe-this-were-virtual-not-real/415756/57 "2007-08-16T18:10:50Z")
[QUOTE=gladiadelmarre] As a wise man once said, it’s turtles all the way down. [/QUOTE] The version in _my_ universe is that this was a retort from a woman whose turtle-beliefs were being questioned by Bertrand Russell, though it may be apocryphal. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-believe-this-were-virtual-not-real/415756/58 "2007-08-16T20:28:30Z")
Dr. Bostrom was somewhat slipshod with his mathematics. To avoid wasting prescious time, I’ll merely repost my point from a prior thread about this subject. > [@ITR Champion](#): > > This argument in favor of us inhabiting a virtual universe rather than a ‘real’ one (whatever that means) occured to me several years ago when I was in college. I shared it with several friends; some agreed and some did not. Now, however, I’m not sure whether I agree or not. > > Let’s make things precise. Let R be the number of real universes in the multiverse and V be the number of virtual universes. Then the probability that we live in a real universe is R/(R+V), and the probability that we live in virtual universe is V/(R+V). > > Scenario 1. Suppose there’s only one real universe. Then R = 1. If the inhabitants of this real universe spawn a large number of virtual universes, then V will be very large. Then by basic mathematics, the probability of us living in a real universe is close to zero, while the probability for a virtual universe is close to one. > > (We note that this logic holds if R is any finite number.) > > Scenario 2. Suppose there are infinite real universes. In that case, even if the inhabitants of each real universe spawn billions of virtual universes, R and V are still the same. Specifically, R and V are both infinity. Hence we’re equally likely to inhabit a real or virtual universe. > > Plainly it all depends on figuring out which scenario we’re in. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-believe-this-were-virtual-not-real/415756/59 "2007-08-16T21:14:23Z")
That would explain the dark matter that physicists and astronomers are always going on about. Dark matter is really the OS and other background processes that we can infer, but never observe. So are we running in a protected memory space? ---
**Author:** ![Defective\_Detective](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d2c977/32.png) [@Defective\_Detective](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defective_Detective)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2007, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-believe-this-were-virtual-not-real/415756/60 "2007-08-16T23:37:42Z")
[QUOTE=Baldwin] Why do you think he’s an idiot? He’s posited a plausible picture of the human experience, one that cannot be disproven and makes as much sense as any religious cosmology. [/QUOTE] No, that’s just my point, it doesn’t make any sense at all and is completely idiotic. Taken by itself, in its most simplistic form… I suppose it’s plausible. But it is utter stupidity not to take into consideration all of your personal life experiences; love, art, pride, selflessness, heroism, and all the things that make us human - think about the last time you experienced these things for yourself, do you remember how amazing it felt? How can a reasonable person believe that those feelings were created by a computer? You want to tell me that when I listen to my favorite albums, or when I look at the art that hangs on my walls, a computer made that? No. I don’t care if you have infinite computing power (which I think is dumb to assume in the first place, but whatever), it is sheer supidity. No computer can make love. No computer can create. Too few of the things I have seen and felt, frankly, could be created by a computer, and I think it’s complete idiocy to believe otherwise. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-believe-this-were-virtual-not-real/415756.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-believe-this-were-virtual-not-real/415756.md?page=4)