# Anybody have a better idea on how to fight forest fires? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 5, 2018, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-have-a-better-idea-on-how-to-fight-forest-fires/817332 "2018-07-05T15:59:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-have-a-better-idea-on-how-to-fight-forest-fires/817332/21 "2018-07-06T01:23:38Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > Sadly, the best option is to let small fires burn. > By aggressively fighting all fires, undergrowth and litter is permitted to build up, which makes subsequent fires much more destructive. > Of course, climate change is going to make forest fires worse in the future, so that needs to be taken into consideration. This is 100% the answer. It is better for the forest and in the long run reduces really large fires. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-have-a-better-idea-on-how-to-fight-forest-fires/817332/22 "2018-07-06T01:26:33Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > … > > A prescribed-burn program is going to cost $$. Are communities threatened by wildfires going to pony-up? Most of them will want the State or Federal Government to do the Pony-Up. Just like those that overbuild on barrier islands and expect the State and Federal Government to help them out when nature wrecks their house. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-have-a-better-idea-on-how-to-fight-forest-fires/817332/23 "2018-07-06T01:27:24Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > For a forest fire, it would have to stay running, damn thing could drain lakes, or would need almost an endless supply of 18 wheeler tankers feeding it. If there was that much water in close proximity to the fire, you probably wouldn’t have a fire. Again, oil well fires are not wildfires; they won’t have similar solutions. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-have-a-better-idea-on-how-to-fight-forest-fires/817332/24 "2018-07-06T01:33:51Z")
the best way to increase fire fighting capabilities is to atomize the water. This does 2 things, it increases the cooling effect as it vaporizes and it reduces the amount of water used. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-have-a-better-idea-on-how-to-fight-forest-fires/817332/25 "2018-07-06T03:23:55Z")
Having held a wildland fire “[Red Card](https://www.nwcg.gov/how-to-become-a-wildland-firefighter)” for more than thirty years, I did everything from greenhorn mopping up to being on a hot shot crew, to helitack, to crazy shit back in the day that safety requirements today one should never, ever do (but it was all we had at the time). First off, you can read up on the [Spring Creek Fire directly](https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/5875/), and not the all too often misinformation and sensational reporting from local and national news. Second, a wildland fire is not a “compact” fire like a barn fire, a house fire, or even a auto salvage tire fire. Wildland fires burn along a perimeter. The size of a wildland fire encompasses burned and unburned acreage. The vegetation types, soils compositions, land topography, ever-changing weather conditions, etc., play interwoven roles. Add in the constant political firestorm for “cost containment,” political hacks calling for more resources (especially the grandstanding supertankers for a great photo op), and you have a real perfect storm. Wildland fire fighting is also shaped by a legal minefield. Federal land? State land? Private land? Is any of the public land protected, like a wilderness designation? Any animal species in danger because of a special status (threatened and endangered species)? Any threatened utilities (power lines, underground gas and oil pipes)? Vacation cabins? Actual towns and inhabited areas threatened? We also have consider “after the fire,” months down the road. Will fall/winter rains and snow turn damaged lands and bare soils into massive runoffs? The “after the fire” is in quotes because all wildland fires are “officially out” only after a season-ending event. So let’s assume the Spring Creek Fire is defined as “contained” 30 days from now. To be considered dead and out, a season-ending event may mean 12 inches of sustained snow on the ground. (Still some fires can burn all winter despite snow and/or rain only to re-ignite in spring.) We only fly on a fire if fire characteristics warrant. Even so, human safety remains the ultimate decider. (And those self-absorbed drone operators need to be burned at the stake. When a drone is found flying even near a fire, all air support stops dead.) Plus, to be most effective, SEATs (Single Engine Air Tankers) and helicopters fly “close” to a fire. Room for last-second error correction is practically nil. (Back in the day I was on a fire in Washington State where we were on a hot fire line, on a 45 degree slope. Relatively dense vegetation. It was impossible to dig a fire line on that slope and back burning was limited; one burning, rolling log can ruin your day and expand the fire in seconds. The only recourse was a retardant drop. Oh, wait. That dense vegetation. The tanker could not see the fireline through the dense vegetation and smoke. But the pilots could see, although not well, our yellow fire shirts. So a decision was made for all of us to line up just off the hot fire line 50-75 feet apart – near an “open” view to the sky, each of us standing near a stout tree. The tanker flew a first pass, low and slow, to eyeball all of us. On the second pass, with all of our radios on high volume to hear the orders, the fun began. As the tanker started its bombing run, when the orders came, we each had to hug our individual stout trees on the leeward side of the drop. We’re not talking a heavy rain from above. Think fire hose downpour of fire slurry retardant. It got the job done. And back in fire camp, our “slimed” fire shirts we wore carried a forever badge of courage / stupidity / craziness / whatever. I think I still have my slime shirt - unwashed - somewhere in my fire gear.) Explosives to “put out” a wildland fire? No way. Justify the permanent damage to the soils, wildlife, unburned vegetation, hidden utility lines, even fire fighters. For what? What is not yet making the news, but will someday, is climate change is making wildland fires start earlier in the season, last longer, burn hotter, and be more destructive. Fire science continues to evolve so who knows how fire fighting will change. (It’s gonna get worse since there are fewer and fewer, quality and qualified wildland fire fighters. We have an entire generation that was never raised with an environmental ethic or awareness.) But what will not change is accepting a single fire death nor increased funding. Even so, with increased funding it still will not slow the a natural process fueled by climate change. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-have-a-better-idea-on-how-to-fight-forest-fires/817332/26 "2018-07-06T04:09:25Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > the best way to increase fire fighting capabilities is to atomize the water. This does 2 things, it increases the cooling effect as it vaporizes and it reduces the amount of water used. And you can do that with a squeeze bottle of ketchup and two paper clips, right? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![CelticKnot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/celticknot/32/3392_2.png) [@CelticKnot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CelticKnot)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-have-a-better-idea-on-how-to-fight-forest-fires/817332/27 "2018-07-06T04:40:00Z")
Many have discussed it, but none have given the problem the name: Smokey Bear Effect ttp://mentalfloss.com/article/12492/smokey-bear-effect ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-have-a-better-idea-on-how-to-fight-forest-fires/817332/28 "2018-07-06T16:02:24Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Most of them will want the State or Federal Government to do the Pony-Up. Just like those that overbuild on barrier islands and expect the State and Federal Government to help them out when nature wrecks their house. Them wanting it, and getting it will be two different things. I’ve only been in this area a few years so don’t know if such a program exists or not, but that’s what insurance companies are for, if you can find one to write you a policy. Quite a few were not insured in this area due to occupancy rules and a litany of other factors. If one couldn’t get fire insurance, they knew the risks. I don’t expect a penny from them, and my place wasn’t insured. Natural disasters are everywhere on earth, for those in the US, this is what we have to [contend with.](https://blog.wdtinc.com/wheres-the-best-place-to-live-and-avoid-natural-disasters) I know of plenty that build by certain rivers that flood on a regular basis, and get bailed out often with federal money. Think that was on 60 Minutes some years back. Don’t know if they finally put a stop to that, but I wish they would. Quite a few of these were second cabin type homes, anyhow, not like it was their main home, although some had some very impressive multi-million dollar places in this area. I’m more concerned about the trees being gone than my little 1,320 s.f. log cabin. Most knew the risks, and have accepted it from the handful I’ve talked to in this area. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-have-a-better-idea-on-how-to-fight-forest-fires/817332/29 "2018-07-06T16:14:21Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > Having held a wildland fire “[Red Card](https://www.nwcg.gov/how-to-become-a-wildland-firefighter)” for more than thirty years, I did everything from greenhorn mopping up to being on a hot shot crew, to helitack, to crazy shit back in the day that safety requirements today one should never, ever do (but it was all we had at the time). Sound like the real deal to me. Any rule of thumb of what they determine is a small fire that they might let burn out vs a big fire they want to put out? Or do they still try to put out the small fires too? Sounds like a interesting, dangerous, and adventurous career. Where do I sign up? 😉 > [@](#): > > First off, you can read up on the [Spring Creek Fire directly](https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/5875/), and not the all too often misinformation and sensational reporting from local and national news. I’m going to send it that link to a few in my area that were affected, we were relying on most scanty info that was often outdated. Looks like the light rains finally helped give it 35% containment according to your link. > [@](#): > > We also have consider “after the fire,” months down the road.{snip} Yeah, that whole flood after the fire thing, is similar to how our local weatherman in TX described our drought to flood, by saying we replaced one natural disaster with another. I noticed flood warnings are already in affect now. > [@](#): > > Explosives to “put out” a wildland fire? No way. Justify the permanent damage to the soils, wildlife, unburned vegetation, hidden utility lines, even fire fighters. For what? Well, that’s no fun then. At least let me retrofit that tank with the two jet engines to set it up for a water cannon. > [@](#): > > What is not yet making the news, but will someday, is climate change is making wildland fires start earlier in the season, last longer, burn hotter, and be more destructive. Fire science continues to evolve so who knows how fire fighting will change. (It’s gonna get worse since there are fewer and fewer, quality and qualified wildland fire fighters. We have an entire generation that was never raised with an environmental ethic or awareness.) But what will not change is accepting a single fire death nor increased funding. Even so, with increased funding it still will not slow the a natural process fueled by climate change. Yep, finding places that are reasonably hospitable will be harder to find in the future. More risks everywhere from what I see. Let’s hope their forecast models are off. > **[How Global Warming May Affect U.S. Beaches, Coastline](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/11/081122083051.htm)** > > Scientists are finding that sea level rise will have different consequences in different places but that they will be profound on virtually all coastlines. Land in some areas of the Atlantic and Gulf coasts of the United States will simply be... ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-have-a-better-idea-on-how-to-fight-forest-fires/817332/30 "2018-07-06T17:59:01Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > Having held a wildland fire “[Red Card](https://www.nwcg.gov/how-to-become-a-wildland-firefighter)” for more than thirty years, I did everything from greenhorn mopping up to being on a hot shot crew, to helitack, to crazy shit back in the day that safety requirements today one should never, ever do (but it was all we had at the time). > > First off, you can read up on the [Spring Creek Fire directly](https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/5875/), and not the all too often misinformation and sensational reporting from local and national news. > > Second, a wildland fire is not a “compact” fire like a barn fire, a house fire, or even a auto salvage tire fire. Wildland fires burn along a perimeter. The size of a wildland fire encompasses burned and unburned acreage. The vegetation types, soils compositions, land topography, ever-changing weather conditions, etc., play interwoven roles. Add in the constant political firestorm for “cost containment,” political hacks calling for more resources (especially the grandstanding supertankers for a great photo op), and you have a real perfect storm. > > Wildland fire fighting is also shaped by a legal minefield. Federal land? State land? Private land? Is any of the public land protected, like a wilderness designation? Any animal species in danger because of a special status (threatened and endangered species)? Any threatened utilities (power lines, underground gas and oil pipes)? Vacation cabins? Actual towns and inhabited areas threatened? > > We also have consider “after the fire,” months down the road. Will fall/winter rains and snow turn damaged lands and bare soils into massive runoffs? The “after the fire” is in quotes because all wildland fires are “officially out” only after a season-ending event. So let’s assume the Spring Creek Fire is defined as “contained” 30 days from now. To be considered dead and out, a season-ending event may mean 12 inches of sustained snow on the ground. (Still some fires can burn all winter despite snow and/or rain only to re-ignite in spring.) > > We only fly on a fire if fire characteristics warrant. Even so, human safety remains the ultimate decider. (And those self-absorbed drone operators need to be burned at the stake. When a drone is found flying even near a fire, all air support stops dead.) Plus, to be most effective, SEATs (Single Engine Air Tankers) and helicopters fly “close” to a fire. Room for last-second error correction is practically nil. (Back in the day I was on a fire in Washington State where we were on a hot fire line, on a 45 degree slope. Relatively dense vegetation. It was impossible to dig a fire line on that slope and back burning was limited; one burning, rolling log can ruin your day and expand the fire in seconds. The only recourse was a retardant drop. Oh, wait. That dense vegetation. The tanker could not see the fireline through the dense vegetation and smoke. But the pilots could see, although not well, our yellow fire shirts. So a decision was made for all of us to line up just off the hot fire line 50-75 feet apart – near an “open” view to the sky, each of us standing near a stout tree. The tanker flew a first pass, low and slow, to eyeball all of us. On the second pass, with all of our radios on high volume to hear the orders, the fun began. As the tanker started its bombing run, when the orders came, we each had to hug our individual stout trees on the leeward side of the drop. We’re not talking a heavy rain from above. Think fire hose downpour of fire slurry retardant. It got the job done. And back in fire camp, our “slimed” fire shirts we wore carried a forever badge of courage / stupidity / craziness / whatever. I think I still have my slime shirt - unwashed - somewhere in my fire gear.) > > Explosives to “put out” a wildland fire? No way. Justify the permanent damage to the soils, wildlife, unburned vegetation, hidden utility lines, even fire fighters. For what? > > What is not yet making the news, but will someday, is climate change is making wildland fires start earlier in the season, last longer, burn hotter, and be more destructive. Fire science continues to evolve so who knows how fire fighting will change. (It’s gonna get worse since there are fewer and fewer, quality and qualified wildland fire fighters. We have an entire generation that was never raised with an environmental ethic or awareness.) But what will not change is accepting a single fire death nor increased funding. Even so, with increased funding it still will not slow the a natural process fueled by climate change. Thanks for this - fascinating stuff. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-have-a-better-idea-on-how-to-fight-forest-fires/817332/31 "2018-07-06T18:00:42Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > My uncle was a firefighter, and my cousin works with the NWS. He used to do forecasting for smoke jumpers, and fire forecasting for the State of CA. I’ll take a whack at your question. > > First up, comparing fire fighting flights to hurricane flights is very much an apples to oranges comparison. The type of aircraft is very different. In most cases, firefighting crafts are maneuverable, and are modified for dropping water or retardant on a fire. They fly much more slowly than weather chasing planes. A hurricane plane is a jet. It flies higher, and its engines are much stronger. It’s able to maintain thrust against the hurricane in a way that firefighting equipment couldn’t manage. On the other hand, it would be thoroughly impractical for fighting fires. > > Visibility is one factor that grounds fire fighting aircraft. In some weather conditions, the smoke is such that the pilots can’t see to fly or where to drop. Some weather conditions by themselves impact visibility or make conditions to dangerous for fancy flying (low clouds with downpours, for example). This isn’t instrumentation flying, where they can fly blind. If they’re in the mountains, where you get insane wind gusts whipping around peaks, this is even more true. Aircraft can be flipped into a mountain in seconds. Night will usually stop fire fighting fights for visibility reasons. Last, but not least, fires can create their own weather and/or weather effects, given the right conditions or if they get large enough. Any of those factors might have been in play in the decision not to fly. Uhh… I always see P-3 Orions flying in hurricanes. Prop jobs. And the water bombers seem to be a mix. I was watching a DC-10 bombing a fire from my office window a few weeks ago. Quite a site to see that big boy flying so low in the mountains. I live and work in Central Colorado. The Weston Pass fire is about 20 miles south of my house. I don’t know how much the fire has to do with it, but a freaking tornado whipped up near it yesterday. You just don’t get tornadoes in the mountains. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-have-a-better-idea-on-how-to-fight-forest-fires/817332/32 "2018-07-06T19:25:08Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > Many have discussed it, but none have given the problem the name: Smokey Bear Effect > [http://mentalfloss.com/article/12492/smokey-bear-effect](http://mentalfloss.com/article/12492/smokey-bear-effect) Link fixed above. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-have-a-better-idea-on-how-to-fight-forest-fires/817332/33 "2018-07-06T19:33:49Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > And the water bombers seem to be a mix. I was watching a DC-10 bombing a fire from my office window a few weeks ago. Quite a site to see that big boy flying so low in the mountains. [Hard to beat the 747 supertanker.](https://youtu.be/Fox_xomGgFg?t=68) [Especially up close.](https://youtu.be/87hfWatbVPY?t=11) :eek: Still, **Sunny Daze** has a point. Look at the first video of the 747: the flaps are in a landing position, trimmed for flying pretty damn slow. Not a lot of control authority at that speed, and of course, they’re also pretty low. If there’s any heavy turbulence going on due to wind over the terrain and/or thermal updrafts from the fire, it presents a fair bit of risk under those circumstances, regardless of the plane. Frankly, [flying in a hurricane doesn’t look so bad](https://youtu.be/a-SnxC-BkPo?t=92) - just slightly worse than the worst I’ve personally experienced on a commercial passenger flight. They get rocked around a bit, but they’re well above stall speed and high above the ocean, so they have plenty of altitude and control authority to make a recovery if they _really_ get tossed around. ---
**Author:** ![Delicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@Delicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delicious)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-have-a-better-idea-on-how-to-fight-forest-fires/817332/34 "2018-07-06T19:37:00Z")
I’ve heard that only \*\*you \*\*can prevent forest fires, so I’m off the hook, get on it **you!** ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-have-a-better-idea-on-how-to-fight-forest-fires/817332/35 "2018-07-06T19:42:42Z")
Encourage climate change. With all the water that has been, until now, dangerously trapped in the polar ice caps released, the oceans will have more surface area. More surface area and more heat means more evaporation, meaning more clouds. More clouds means more rain thus decreasing the amount of arid land thus fewer fires. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-have-a-better-idea-on-how-to-fight-forest-fires/817332/36 "2018-07-06T19:45:26Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > … > > Still, **Sunny Daze** has a point. Look at the first video of the 747: the flaps are in a landing position, trimmed for flying pretty damn slow. Not a lot of control authority at that speed, and of course, they’re also pretty low. If there’s any heavy turbulence going on due to wind over the terrain and/or thermal updrafts from the fire, it presents a fair bit of risk under those circumstances, regardless of the plane. > … fer sure. I would think that it may be comforting to know that you can lighten your load by tens of tons in just a few seconds. Still dangerous as all get out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-have-a-better-idea-on-how-to-fight-forest-fires/817332.md?page=1)