# Anybody up for a TWA 800 discussion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2009, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-up-for-a-twa-800-discussion/490944 "2009-03-27T01:32:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-up-for-a-twa-800-discussion/490944/421 "2009-05-27T19:39:08Z")
> [@RedSwinglineOne](#): > > There is a lot of good stuff in the ntsb report. You should read it. And herein lies the problem - Jetblast categorically refuses to believe anything in the NTSB report, because he thinks the report was biased. But all our physical evidence belongs to sources that he says are conspirators, so his conclusions necessarily reject all the physical evidence. On the other hand, Jetblast has made quite a few specific claims in this thread about material evidence, has been asked for citations, and so far has produced bupkis. Jetblast - do you have cites for your assertions you’ve been making here? > [@Jetblast](#): > > …but we are talking a brilliant flashbulb flash of high intensity because of both the high explosive chemicals involved and the 2000 foot per second speed of the explosion itself. Where the hell did you get _that_ number? ---
**Author:** ![Jetblast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/71c47a/32.png) [@Jetblast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jetblast)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-up-for-a-twa-800-discussion/490944/422 "2009-05-27T19:47:35Z")
> [@RedSwinglineOne](#): > > What evidence? You claim that the coroner analyzed the metal and said they did not come from a plane. (cite?) What does he know about planes? According to the report, the bodies were sent to different coroners, mainly for identification. Any metal in the bodies were turned over immediately. The coroners did not idividually send metal out for analysis. ``` Read up. It's much further along than that. FBI themselves tested the strange pellets found by the Long Island coroner and found metals not found in a 747. This means they had to have come from something else. When tested the pellets contained the metals used in US missile warhead shrapnel. Do I need to explain this? From FBI: ``` > [@](#): > > Item “1B-28” - 20 mysterious shrapnel pellets of “unknown origin” > > Apart from the single page mentioned above, only one other forensic laboratory report out of those missing hundreds has ever been released by the FBI. It was an analysis performed by Brookhaven National Lab (BNL) to evaluate 20 small (~1/4” diameter) pellets that were removed during autopsy of the person whose ME# was 96-5037; the pellets were designated Item “1B-28”. The lab report showed that a sample pellet was composed mostly of Aluminum with traces of Titanium, Zirconium, Cerium and Barium. Such compounds are consistent with incendiary pellets used in some missiles. The report merely concluded “unknown origin.” The details of 1B-28 were among over 200 fairly innocuous pages of documents released in response to a Freedom of Information Act request from another independent researcher, Don Collins, in California. The FBI’s executive summary of that BNL Lab report was at variance with the remarkable implications of the BNL’s findings. The FBI initially classified the BNL report “secret.” > > Even if the remarkable incendiary components could be explained, the official low-velocity type fuel explosion could not shatter aluminum into small pellets. > > Refer to the details and some of the documents of this BNL evidence at: > > [FIRO Complaint Against FBI](http://www.flight800.org/FBI_COMP.htm) > > [http://www.twa800.com](http://www.twa800.com) > [@RedSwinglineOne](#): > > Nobody denies there were holes in the plane. The ntsb analyzed the holes and found that none were ‘high velocity impact holes’, like one would find in the case of a missile explosion. > There is a lot of good stuff in the ntsb report. You should read it. ``` The NTSB report is a cover-up. As Sephton's shrapnel pellets prove. (And, especially, as FBI's information-censoring reaction shows) ``` > [@RedSwinglineOne](#): > > So the sharpnel hits the suicide plane, but twa800 crashes? ``` I'll leave the possible suicide aircraft out for now since there's question over whether Brumley saw the P-3 and mistook it for a suicide plane. The entire Sephton link: http://www.foiac.org/SephtonVFBI.htm ``` ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-up-for-a-twa-800-discussion/490944/423 "2009-05-27T19:50:25Z")
> [@Jetblast](#): > > Once again crashing against context. > > ``` > The official investigators said they couldn't locate the black boxes for several weeks. > > ``` OK. And this is sufficient for you to declare all actual evidence from Flight 800 as bogus. Where do you get stones like that? > [@Jetblast](#): > > Locals out with fishing sonar and other equipment said they heard the ‘pings’ during this time. I call BS on the idea that fishing sonar or other similar gear can hear any kind of “pings” from a “black box”. Have you ever seen a “fishing sonar”? Ever operated one? They don’t go “ping… ping… ping…” you know. And they don’t have a microphone and speakers to let you hear somebody else’s pings either. What kind of old submarine movies have you been watching, anyway? > [@Jetblast](#): > > ``` > After several weeks suddenly the official investigation announced they had found them and they were right under the search vessel the whole time. > > ``` Like where else would we expect them to be? The search and recovery vessel(s) obviously congregated at the actual site of the wreckage. Did you expect them to go off in random directions and attempt to pick up pieces of the wreckage from, say, the Straights of Gibraltar or somewhere? Of course the black boxes, just like all the rest of the debris, was under the recovery ships! They were burried in the mud and the debris field under 200 feet of Atlantic ocean, where visibility was probably on the order of a couple of feet. Like, what, 98% of the aircraft-- recovered eventually, after ridiculously diligent search. Oh, and those fishermen with their sonar, had they been fishing directly beneath the search vessels too? Wouldn’t they have been, you know-- in the way? There being an important search going on and all? > [@Jetblast](#): > > There are cases of other crashes in much deeper waters where the boxes were found within a day or two. I won’t bother to ask for a cite. Even assuming this is true, it has absolutely zero to say about Flight 800. I’m too lazy to search for a null point, but I’d bet that other boxes that crashed in the ocean haven’t been found at all. Again though, so what? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-up-for-a-twa-800-discussion/490944/424 "2009-05-27T19:54:26Z")
Jetblast, perhaps you have overlooked the questions being asked of you. Please provide: 1. The radar data you claimed to have, 2. Evidence of missile pieces (please note your claim of “pellets” in the bodies is a circular reference; no link provided goes to any primary evidence) and 3. Evidence of persons with knowledge of a conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![RedSwinglineOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a9adbd/32.png) [@RedSwinglineOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedSwinglineOne)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-up-for-a-twa-800-discussion/490944/425 "2009-05-27T20:01:39Z")
> [@Jetblast](#): > > Like with Meyer, every single witness was excluded from the official hearing,. What would have been the point of inviting 750 witnesses to a hearing? Each of their statements made at the time of the accident is in the report. All of them. > [@](#): > > …and even the investigation itself, The witnesses should have been part of the investigation? Why? They are not experts. Should they have handed out magifying glasses and let them paw over the debris? > [@](#): > > …in its interpretation of what they saw.. Again, the witnesses are not experts. They reported what they saw. Their role is done. I will leave the interpretation to the experts. ---
**Author:** ![Jetblast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/71c47a/32.png) [@Jetblast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jetblast)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-up-for-a-twa-800-discussion/490944/426 "2009-05-27T20:05:49Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The CIA video was not evidence. It’s existence has nothing to do with the investigation. > > Now you may ask WHY the CIA, which has nothing to do with media interpretation of NTSB evidence, made a video in the first place. To me, it would be like NASA producing a video on behalf of the IRS. The NTSB routinely produces visual media of major accidents for public dissemination. ``` This isn't exactly correct. The CIA video was a depiction of what the investigation said was the cause of the crash. So to say it wasn't evidence is mostly semantics since it is an exact replication of the what the official investigation said was the evidence. Its existence has everything to do with the investigation because it was used on CNN to show millions of Americans the explanation for the crash and why the witnesses didn't see missiles. It even used the propaganda film method (Soviet in origin) of flashing "Did not see a missile" on the screen several times. This acts at the subliminal level as far as conditioning the public. People who trust their government to do honest investigations saw the video and assumed the center tank blew-up and Flight 800 zoom-climbed, accounting for what the witnesses mistook for missiles. Of course, no one takes the CIA video seriously anymore. Captain Ray Lahr's lawsuit will prove this if the government ever actually practices that speedy trial business it preaches. The CIA video actually does have a lot to do with the investigation if you consider it as a misinformation video designed to keep the public from pressing for an honest accounting of the cover-up. Once the lose their zoom-climb, they lose their explanation for the missiles. And I don't think a semantic point has much meaning in relation to the bigger picture here. ``` ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-up-for-a-twa-800-discussion/490944/427 "2009-05-27T20:29:38Z")
So… The Suicide Cessna caught Flight 800 in a tractor beam, dropped it 3,500 feet, slowed it 190 knots, turned it upside down, then ripped it apart in the vicinity of the center fuel tank. Then and only then did they fire 3 missiles at it ( **Meyer** , \*\*Jetblast \*\*insists, saw 3 distinct ordinance explosions remember, and we’ve just got to believe him because of Nam or something) such that passengers on board were riddled by shrapnel but the airframe itself was untouched. The shrapnel, we now see, was made mostly of aluminum, a bit of titanium, and some other metals, exactly the general composition of an airframe but of course this was merely part of the disguise! “Origin unknown” means it wasn’t part of something known, not just that we couldn’t decide what common part it had once been, right? And it was not inconsistent with some other flying thingy, like a missile, because only missiles of all flying thingies are mostly aluminum with some titanium and… Then the plotters landed the Cessna and resumed their day jobs as FBI agents and US Navy personnel. Some of them later snuck into the reconstruction hangar and used some of the shrapnel they had confiscated from those damn bothersome coroners and used it to weld up the shrapnel holes in the plane that the tractor beam had not been able to prevent. Oh, and to bash inn-y parts into out-ty parts, and vice versa, of course. Then they snuck out with the hangar’s microwave, because the one back at their office was busted. Others of them manipulated the black boxes, which they had originally acquired while dismantling the Boeing with their tractor beams, replacing all the flight data recorded with bogus flight data that just happened to correspond to an airplane caught by a magical tractor beam. Then they dropped the black boxes into the ocean right under the search ships where, of course, they believed nobody would ever look. It would have worked, too, if not for those damn fishermen! **Jetblast** , I’m with you!! I’m beginning to see it!!! _(head asplodes)_ ---
**Author:** ![Jetblast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/71c47a/32.png) [@Jetblast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jetblast)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-up-for-a-twa-800-discussion/490944/428 "2009-05-27T20:29:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well duh, if the fisherman could hear it then the Feds could hear it. That’s why they parked their boat over the sound. Do you think it was sitting there like bowling ball in the desert waiting to be picked up? It’s in a debri field of twisted metal in 200 feet of water. You have visibility, current, and decompression to deal with. > > Have you ever tried to find a nail you dropped in grass even after you saw where it dropped? ``` No, that isn't accurate. The boxes were found out in the open and untangled as if they had been dropped in place there. Nor did government claim they could hear them and were waiting to clear wreeckage away from them: Cashill: ``` > [@](#): > > a Navy diver found one of TWA 800’s two bright orange “black boxes” sitting on the ocean floor as obvious as the hassock in his living room. > Moments later, with the cameras still rolling, a second diver picked up the other box just as easily and only a few feet away. > > As the investigation’s top priority, the boxes should have been found almost immediately, especially given their location in 130 feet of water, ten miles off Long Island, with their “pingers” still working. > > Earlier in that same year, by contrast, the Navy had located both black boxes at the crash site of a Turkish 757 in 7,200 feet of water within seven hours of the crash. > > In their innocent delight, the divers off Long Island seemed oblivious to the likelihood that these recorders had been removed from the site, edited, and put back in place. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-up-for-a-twa-800-discussion/490944/429 "2009-05-27T20:55:16Z")
> [@Jetblast](#): > > No, that isn’t accurate. The boxes were found out in the open and untangled as if they had been dropped in place there. Nor did government claim they could hear them and were waiting to clear wreeckage away from them: > Cashill: They were found in wreckage 200 feet below the surface. But you’re right, they were located as if they had been dropped in place… from 13,000 feet. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-up-for-a-twa-800-discussion/490944/430 "2009-05-27T20:58:20Z")
[This is what it looks like at 200 feet.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEZl3f8EXNQ) ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-up-for-a-twa-800-discussion/490944/431 "2009-05-27T21:09:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > [This is what it looks like at 200 feet.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEZl3f8EXNQ) Fabulous! I’ve been to 160 feet, but not 200. That would be about 6 atmospheres of pressure. These divers did a remarkable job. Disdain for this compared to what they “should have” done demonstrates a vast ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-up-for-a-twa-800-discussion/490944/432 "2009-05-27T21:23:17Z")
[raises hand] **Jetblast** , may I ask you a question? ---
**Author:** ![RedSwinglineOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a9adbd/32.png) [@RedSwinglineOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedSwinglineOne)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-up-for-a-twa-800-discussion/490944/433 "2009-05-27T21:32:13Z")
> [@Jetblast](#): > > ``` > The official investigators said they couldn't locate the black boxes for several weeks. > > ``` cite? The accident was 7-17. The FDR was recovered 7-24. Thats 7 days. If you are going to pull stuff out your arse, make sure its not part of the public record. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-up-for-a-twa-800-discussion/490944/434 "2009-05-27T21:37:06Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Fabulous! I’ve been to 160 feet, but not 200. That would be about 6 atmospheres of pressure. > > These divers did a remarkable job. Disdain for this compared to what they “should have” done demonstrates a vast ignorance. I’ve been in a cubicle at work with a hidden beeper (practical joke designed to drive people crazy). It took me 2 days to find it. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-up-for-a-twa-800-discussion/490944/435 "2009-05-27T22:22:53Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Here are videos of GBU-31 guided weapons exploding. All the color videos end with bright orange flames: > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWSfHCsi8ss&feature=related](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWSfHCsi8ss&feature=related) While you are at it, watch the [Mother Of All Bombs](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lppFyLKDRck&feature=related) the worlds largest fuel air bomb, then watch a [bunker buster](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yRGVhMQiBE&feature=related) loaded with high explosive and tell me again how a high explosive doesn’t look like burning fuel. Is the MOAB produce an orangeish light? Yeah kinda Does the bunker buster produce an orangeish light? Very, if anything far oranger than the MOAB. Well now that we know Meyer and his experience is pure BS, what else do you have? ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-up-for-a-twa-800-discussion/490944/436 "2009-05-27T22:24:31Z")
_hijack_ You have cubicles at work? That you spend actual time in? ::shudder:: AND you have ‘practical jokers’?!!? Now I REALLY feel bad. _/hijack_ ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-up-for-a-twa-800-discussion/490944/437 "2009-05-28T01:33:31Z")
> [@Jetblast](#): > > I’m directly accusing them of doctoring the data on the recorder simply on the basis of the unexplainable time it took them to find the boxes in shallow water right under the search vessel. If they aren’t doctored I would need that proven to me at this point. Do you have any idea, at all, how difficult it is to find something sunk in the sea? Do you? For my rescue diver course I did an excercise where they threw a weight belt weight over the side of the boat, go fetch they said. I couldn’t find the darn thing in one hour even though I knew where it was dropped, the water was crystal clear and just 8 meters deep and only a small current. Now if you can extrapolate that to a box that fell from miles up into a deep, dark, murky sea and the wonder is that they found so much of the plane at all. I’d like to ask something that hasn’t been asked so far, I think, why the conspiracy?, what reason ddid the US goverment had to shoot down this plane? Here’s hoping that you may actually answer one single question directly… As an adendum, I’d really like o see some form of “put up or shut up” ruling here, you’ve been spreading ignorance wide and thick, not only without the minimum effort of supporting it with facts and cites, but actively dismissing them. ---
**Author:** ![RedSwinglineOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a9adbd/32.png) [@RedSwinglineOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedSwinglineOne)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-up-for-a-twa-800-discussion/490944/438 "2009-05-28T03:19:22Z")
From **Jetblast** ’s link. > [@](#): > > …only one other forensic laboratory report out of those missing hundreds has ever been released by the FBI. It was an analysis performed by Brookhaven National Lab (BNL)… I’d be interested in reading this. Your link does not reference this document, but since it was released by the FBI, you should not have any trouble tracking this down for me, correct? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-up-for-a-twa-800-discussion/490944/439 "2009-05-28T03:43:53Z")
> [@Jetblast](#): > > Cashill: > > > [@](#): > > > > Earlier in that same year, by contrast, the Navy had located both black boxes at the crash site of a Turkish 757 in 7,200 feet of water within seven hours of the crash. Since I’m getting familiar with your reliability, and Cashill’s, I decided to check this source. On February 6, 1996, Birgenair Flight 301 (a Turkish-owned plane) crashed after taking off from the Dominican Republic. The data and voice recorders were recovered from 7200 feet of water on Feb 28, more than three weeks later. [source](http://www.rvs.uni-bielefeld.de/publications/Incidents/DOCS/ComAndRep/PuertoPlata/18-3-birgenair.html) I see now why you avoid posting specifics so assiduously - every time you post something specific, it’s wrong! ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-up-for-a-twa-800-discussion/490944/440 "2009-05-28T04:50:56Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > As an adendum, I’d really like o see some form of “put up or shut up” ruling here, you’ve been spreading ignorance wide and thick, not only without the minimum effort of supporting it with facts and cites, but actively dismissing them. I would support such a ruling. > [@CurtC](#): > > Since I’m getting familiar with your reliability, and Cashill’s, I decided to check this source. > I see now why you avoid posting specifics so assiduously - every time you post something specific, it’s wrong! You noticed that also, huh? Oh BTW still waiting… for some data from the radar Missiles pieces someone that participated in the conspiracy. While we are at it, I am going to throw in a fourth item I want to see. Proof of your claim that the St. Louis bomb test took place as you described it. Frankly based on your track record so far in this thread, I’m not going to believe another word you post, unless you supply some cites for them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-up-for-a-twa-800-discussion/490944.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-up-for-a-twa-800-discussion/490944.md?page=23)