# Anybody Who Really Supports Affirmative Action? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 5, 2011, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874 "2011-07-05T03:36:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/21 "2011-07-05T15:25:44Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I do. Hard quotas, the whole\* schmeer.\* This country needs to be forcibly integrated, because left to their own devices, Americans will balkanize. > > I also think we should give tax credits to interracial couples. > > Of course the whole thing should be abandoned once the races are scrambled & we can’t tell the line anymore, but we’re not quite there yet. So you believe interracial marriage/relations should be encouraged by the government? > [@MrDibble](#): > > And to teach Whitey a lesson. In South Africa, if you’re too hard on them, they’ll just move away, and South Africa needs them for economic stability. > [@MrDibble](#): > > What’s wrong with a graded scale of affirmative action? Some limited AA for Asians, and more for Blacks, and even more for Natives (or less, I don’t know how they stack up in the Oppression Bingo) Well Asian-Americans are doing far better than whites with regards to income, educational attainment, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Bloodless\_Turnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bloodless\_Turnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bloodless_Turnip)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/22 "2011-07-05T15:32:53Z")
@ **Polycarp** - operative word being Federal. Do entities who don’t get a share of taxpayer monies also put minorities or women or na’s to the top of the list? I wonder if the percentage guidelines are meant to somehow capture the length and depth of the oppression, or simply attempt to balance the diversity levels as they are today. \*disclaimer, I never answer that question on forms. I think it’s absurd. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/23 "2011-07-05T16:01:35Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > In South Africa, if you’re too hard on them, they’ll just move away, and South Africa needs them for economic stability. It was a joke, son. Anyone who has moved away from SA because they don’t like AA is welcome to. No-one I know seems to lack for work. > [@](#): > > Well Asian-Americans are doing far better than whites with regards to income, educational attainment, and so on. Not this bullshit again. “Asian-Americans” are not some monolithic bloc. [Many](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hmong_American#Education) [subgroups](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_American#Education) don’t do nearly so well: [ > [@](#): > > When divided up by ethnicity, it can be seen that\*\* the economic and academic successes supposedly enjoyed by Asian Americans are concentrated into a few ethnic groups\*\*. Vietnamese, Cambodian, Hmong, and Laotian Americans are\*\* less likely than African Americans to be high school graduates and also have a lower median personal income\*\* ]([Asian Americans - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_American#Model_minority))My bolding. ETA: You could make an argument that Confucian-Americans (and Hindu-Americans and Muslim-Americans…) show better performance. But stereotyping Asian-Americans or being a [greedy reductionis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greedy_reductionism)t is just misusing statistics for no good purpose. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/24 "2011-07-05T17:18:00Z")
I’m half Welsh! Where’s my parade? Would Barack Obama be eligible, given that he’s only half black? More seriously, I can see a bit of reason for it for black and injun people in America, although definitely not for Asians or women both of whom do better than the rest of the population. In fact, I have a plan: leave us white men alone and take places from the Asian women and give them to the black men. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/25 "2011-07-05T18:30:09Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > So you believe interracial marriage/relations should be encouraged by the government? Yes. The longer the USA maintains separate racial castes, the more trouble I expect. ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/26 "2011-07-05T19:14:08Z")
Sounds like someone has seen Bulworth. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/27 "2011-07-05T19:50:27Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Is there anybody here who really supports affirmative action by race? If so why do you support it? Is there any rational reason for it? If by affirmative action by race you mean what happens for whites as a matter of course, then no - I don’t support it. If you mean a government mandate to give preferential treatment to minorities, then yes - I do support it. The rational reason is, as I stated, it is happening, as a matter of course (perhaps unconsciously), to give preferential treatment to whites - so a government mandate serves to consciously level the playing field. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/28 "2011-07-05T20:07:06Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > If you mean a government mandate to give preferential treatment to minorities, then yes - I do support it. What are you talking about? Please show me how Middle Easterners and Asian-Americans are given “preferential treatment” by the US government. Also, please explain to me why you think universities should be allowed to discriminate against Asian-Americans in favor of Hispanics since you say you support Affirmative Action. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/29 "2011-07-05T20:21:55Z")
> [@Implicit](#): > > Yes. > > Systemic discrimination. > > Systemic discrimination. What he said ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/30 "2011-07-05T20:50:49Z")
> [@Implicit](#): > > Yes. > > Systemic discrimination. > > Systemic discrimination. So should we apply this to sports as well or do quantifiable levels of achievement only apply that way? The purpose for civil service tests is to eliminate bias yet my city is getting sued by the government because they can’t dumb a test down enough for minorities. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/31 "2011-07-05T21:10:53Z")
> [@Bloodless\_Turnip](#): > > Cause I come from a long line of women who weren’t allowed to own property (among other things), and I’m also a goodly chunk Native American and I doubt I need explain where I got shortchanged there. If you don’t know that women (yes, that includes white women) and Native Americans are eligible for Affirmative Action, then you’re really not qualified to talk at length about it. > **[Affirmative action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action)** > > Affirmative action (also sometimes called reservations, alternative access, positive discrimination or positive action in various countries' laws and policies)\[a\] refers to a set of policies and practices within a government or organization seeking to address systemic discrimination. Historically and internationally, support for affirmative action has been justified by the idea that it may help with bridging inequalities in employment and pay, increasing access to education, and promoting dive... The meta irony of this thread is that everyone in this thread who is complaining about AA are focusing only on race, with some people not even knowing that more than half of all whites are protected under the program. It really is talking longer than we thought. ---
**Author:** ![AntiCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a587f6/32.png) [@AntiCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AntiCoyote)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/32 "2011-07-05T21:22:08Z")
I think the idea should remain but revised. As an oldie who witnessed blatant discrimination, that for the most part is gone, but it’s replaced with subtle discrimination that is just as effective but hard to prove Certainly black, women and other minorities are not in the same position they were when it was first instituted. But they haven’t been equalized yet, but they’ve made a lot of progress. Till that equalization comes about, I think it should stay, just be relooked at ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/33 "2011-07-05T21:23:35Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The purpose for civil service tests is to eliminate bias yet my city is getting sued by the government because they can’t dumb a test down enough for minorities. This strikes me as extremely unlikely, because there is no requirement under any law that a city be required to “dumb a test down enough for minorities” so presumably any government law suit on the basis that a city “can’t dumb a test down enough for minorities” is doomed. Unless, of course, you are seeking to poison the well by presenting the lawsuit in a your own terminology rather than represent the actual grounds of the suit, that is… ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/34 "2011-07-05T21:25:38Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Is there anybody here who really supports affirmative action by race? If so why do you support it? Is there any rational reason for it? I think there is some place left for race based AA, but I would rather see the majority of the focus shifted to AA based on class. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/35 "2011-07-05T21:38:14Z")
I’m not sure affirmative action for class does much except slap a band-aid on the underlying issues, which is that the educational infrastructure available to certain disadvantaged segments of society is really, really shitty, from the beginning on up. If it’s a question of “focus”, I’d like to see the focus be on improving that initial K-12 infrastructure before worrying about college admissions and beyond. (Of course, nothing stops one from doing both. And improving the K-12 infrastructure in itself wouldn’t directly help issues of prejudice such as the oft-cited “People with black sounding last names but equal qualifications are less likely to get hired”. Plus, it’s hard to improve the K-12 infrastructure when presumably much of the reason it’s so shitty is tangled up with much wider societal problems in those communities. Etc., etc. Everything’s too tricky for me to feel really comfortable announcing my opinions…) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/36 "2011-07-05T22:30:38Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > I’m not sure affirmative action for class does much except slap a band-aid on the underlying issues, which is that the educational infrastructure available to certain disadvantaged segments of society is really, really shitty, from the beginning on up. If it’s a question of “focus”, I’d like to see the focus be on improving that initial K-12 infrastructure before worrying about college admissions and beyond. I was thinking the same thing. I think the reason AA seems more attractive, though, is that fixing the problems with K-12 education is about on par with fixing the problems in the Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/37 "2011-07-05T23:01:32Z")
Quoth **Recovering Republican** : > [@](#): > > So maybe instead of looking for another government handout (because they’ll just mess it up), African Americans need to look at what Asians are doing right. (First hint. Asians do not have a 65% out of wedlock birth rate!) That might work if African Americans were a single monolithic hive mind, but since they’re not, you have to look at how it works for individuals. Let’s say that young Jamal was born to an unwed teenage mother, never met his father, surrounded by gangs and crime, etc. But Jamal is a smart kid. He realizes that there are better lives out there, and he wants to get out of that destructive lifestyle and become a productive upstanding member of society. So he studies hard in school, and doesn’t get anyone pregnant, and stays as far away from the gangs as he can, and does everything else right. But because of his background (no father providing for him, and his mom can just barely make ends meet for him and her other children), he can’t afford to go to the good schools, and is stuck with the crappy inner-city public schools. And he can’t afford his own books, so he only has access to those for two weeks at a time from the library (and usually has to wait a week to get them via inter-library loan, since his local branch is woefully understocked). And his only chance to use a computer is a half-hour at a time at the same library (thank heavens he even has a public library at all). Now, Jamal has some real obstacles he has to overcome, and yes, many of those are caused, or at least contributed to by, the fact that he was born out of wedlock. But that’s not his fault: He’s doing all he can. Should the son be punished for the sins of his father? To be clear, by the way, I don’t think affirmative action is the optimum solution. There are kids like Jamal out there who happen to be white, too, and they need and deserve a helping hand just as much. And there are black kids who are born into wealthy, stable, supportive families, who are already getting all they need. In the ideal world, we’d give help to whomever needed it. But lacking that, affirmative action is still better than nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/38 "2011-07-05T23:22:25Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It was a joke, son. > > Anyone who has moved away from SA because they don’t like AA is welcome to. No-one I know seems to lack for work.Not this bullshit again. “Asian-Americans” are not some monolithic bloc. [Many](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hmong_American#Education) [subgroups](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_American#Education) > don’t do nearly so well: [My bolding. > > ETA: You could make an argument that Confucian-Americans (and Hindu-Americans and Muslim-Americans…) show better performance. But stereotyping Asian-Americans or being a [URL=“[Greedy reductionism - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greedy_reductionism)”]greedy reductionis]([Asian Americans - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_American#Model_minority))t is just misusing statistics for no good purpose. Well people were throwing around “Asian-American” as if it were another race. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > Yes. The longer the USA maintains separate racial castes, the more trouble I expect. In that case we should encourage marriage for blacks (for example) to stop the rampant single-motherhood in inner cities/ ---
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/39 "2011-07-05T23:33:17Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > In that case we should encourage marriage for blacks (for example) to stop the rampant single-motherhood in inner cities/ That’s your second attempt to drag interracial marriage into this thread. Didn’t you just have an interracial relationship thread? Please explain what interracial marriage has to do with Affirmative Action. At the moment is appears the rest of us are posting at cross purposes if your definition of Affirmative Action involves marriage in some way. ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/40 "2011-07-05T23:37:46Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What’s wrong with a graded scale of affirmative action? Some limited AA for Asians, and more for Blacks, and even more for Natives (or less, I don’t know how they stack up in the Oppression Bingo) I think that would make the obvious racism of it all even more obvious. Which will just make people more anxious to get rid of it. How about this. Instead of affirmative action based on race, we do it on the basis of economic circumstances. No reason the Huxtable kids should get affirmative action because their black while the trailer trash kids don’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874.md?page=3)