# Anybody Who Really Supports Affirmative Action? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 5, 2011, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874 "2011-07-05T03:36:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/61 "2011-07-06T15:41:28Z")
I do, but only really on a single generation basis. The children of people who were alive during Jim Crow have virtually all been affected by what happened to their parents. Their own kids, maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/62 "2011-07-06T15:56:48Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Would Barack Obama be eligible, given that he’s only half black? Well, obviously he’d only rate a part-time slot. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/63 "2011-07-06T16:00:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > They redid the test twice going to outside sources to construct a bias free test. [It’s been going on since 2006](http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/as-police-force-shrinks-hiring-held-up-by-lawsuit-1099189.html?cxtype=rss_news). The lawsuits don’t challenge the content of the test. They simply state that if not enough minorities pass, the test is discriminatory. And the lawsuit uses the term “dumb down enough for the minorities”? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/64 "2011-07-06T16:04:48Z")
> [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > How about this. Instead of affirmative action based on race, we do it on the basis of economic circumstances. What is the absolute phobia in the US of using the term “class”? > [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > No reason the Huxtable kids should get affirmative action because their black while the trailer trash kids don’t. Well that’s not totally true - discrimination works on multiple levels, and while much can be addressed with class-based affirmative action, not all does. As long as there is still pure race based discrimination (as shown by the identical resumes with different names example earlier) there is a good argument for race based AA running alongside class based AA. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/65 "2011-07-06T16:16:21Z")
> [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > Or here’s a whacky idea. You get the government out of the Hall Monitor business altogether. Hey, Apartheid was a government program to start out with - so it is the government fixing the government’s mess. That’s not hall monitoring, that’s responsibility, that is. Cleaning up after other people’s fuckups. And the majority of the people must want affirmative action, or at least not oppose it that much, or why would they keep voting in the same government? > [@](#): > > But if you want them to help the unfortunate, make sure you determine that they are really unfortunate. Like I said before, it is not _just_ about helping the unfortunate. There’s a larger social engineering goal as well. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/66 "2011-07-06T17:43:35Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It was a joke, son. > > Anyone who has moved away from SA because they don’t like AA is welcome to. No-one I know seems to lack for work.Not this bullshit again. “Asian-Americans” are not some monolithic bloc. [Many](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hmong_American#Education) [subgroups](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_American#Education) > don’t do nearly so well: [My bolding. > > ETA: You could make an argument that Confucian-Americans (and Hindu-Americans and Muslim-Americans…) show better performance. But stereotyping Asian-Americans or being a [URL=“[Greedy reductionism - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greedy_reductionism)”]greedy reductionis]([Asian Americans - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_American#Model_minority))t is just misusing statistics for no good purpose. Just a nit but I think there are probably more “Confucian” cultures than you think. For example, I think Vietnamese culture has a strong confucian influence. They adopted an imperial exam just like Korea, Japan and China but the 20th century was not very kind to Vietnam and a century of subjugation is not good for any country. I think you can Further argue that any advantages even these “Confucian Americans” have over the general population is largely illusory when you correct for local wage levels. i.e. Confucian Americans tend to live in high wage high cost of living areas so the college educated Asian tends to make more than their white counterparts but if you compare college educated Asian American compensation in NYC with the compensation for similarly situated whites, the gap gets really small or actually reverses itself. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/67 "2011-07-06T17:47:40Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > What are you talking about? > > Please show me how Middle Easterners and Asian-Americans are given “preferential treatment” by the US government. > > Also, please explain to me why you think universities should be allowed to discriminate against Asian-Americans in favor of Hispanics since you say you support Affirmative Action. Well they gave a BUNCH of JApanese Americans free room and bvoard during WWII. FREE!!! Universities already dsicrimiante against Asians in an effort to promote diversity (oddly enough being a white male provides a small advantage in the pursuit of diversity because of the crowding out effect of white females and Asians). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/68 "2011-07-06T17:59:40Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Quoth **Recovering Republican** :That might work if African Americans were a single monolithic hive mind, but since they’re not, you have to look at how it works for individuals. Let’s say that young Jamal was born to an unwed teenage mother, never met his father, surrounded by gangs and crime, etc. But Jamal is a smart kid. He realizes that there are better lives out there, and he wants to get out of that destructive lifestyle and become a productive upstanding member of society. So he studies hard in school, and doesn’t get anyone pregnant, and stays as far away from the gangs as he can, and does everything else right. > > But because of his background (no father providing for him, and his mom can just barely make ends meet for him and her other children), he can’t afford to go to the good schools, and is stuck with the crappy inner-city public schools. And he can’t afford his own books, so he only has access to those for two weeks at a time from the library (and usually has to wait a week to get them via inter-library loan, since his local branch is woefully understocked). And his only chance to use a computer is a half-hour at a time at the same library (thank heavens he even has a public library at all). > > Now, Jamal has some real obstacles he has to overcome, and yes, many of those are caused, or at least contributed to by, the fact that he was born out of wedlock. But that’s not his fault: He’s doing all he can. Should the son be punished for the sins of his father? > > To be clear, by the way, I don’t think affirmative action is the optimum solution. There are kids like Jamal out there who happen to be white, too, and they need and deserve a helping hand just as much. And there are black kids who are born into wealthy, stable, supportive families, who are already getting all they need. In the ideal world, we’d give help to whomever needed it. But lacking that, affirmative action is still better than nothing. So you are saying that rough jsutice is better than no justice at all. I don’t want to turn this into a general education thread but its not simply race and economics. There are cultural issues in inner city communities that do not exist elsewhere. You ever wonder why inner city girls do so much better than inner city boys? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/69 "2011-07-06T18:02:38Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’ve seen AA-like policies make government inefficient. For instance, as a state employee, I cannot buy a simple staple machine from anyone. I have to go through a laborious process of selecting a SWM vendor (small/women/minority-owned business). Usually, it will boil down to one or two vendors…because there are few vendors who have bothered to fill out all that craptacular paperwork to become SWM eligible. It doesn’t matter if the vendors have a tremendous mark-up on their products. It doesn’t matter if the business is actually run by a guy and his wife is the president in name only. All that matters is that there is an illusion of fairness being kept. But it’s not fair, it’s not efficient, and it’s not how things should work, IMHO. If I want to buy a stapler, I should be able to go to any office supply catalogue and buy it. It’s coming out of my grant money, so if I get ripped off, then it will be my responsibility. As it is now, if I get ripped off, it’s the government’s fault for forcing me to go with a SWM vendor. No one that I work with likes SWM. No one. I’ve always wondered why some venture capitalist hasn’t started to fund minority owned enterprises to take advantage of this preference. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/70 "2011-07-06T18:08:22Z")
I don’t support AA as implemented, although it’s not too bad compared to doing nothing. The original concept was to allow discrimination in hiring and contracting to counteract prior discrimination. It eventually turned into something like a quota system. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/71 "2011-07-06T18:14:23Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Just a nit but I think there are probably more “Confucian” cultures than you think. For example, I think Vietnamese culture has a strong confucian influence. Fair enough, I stand corrected (I had Vietnam down as largely Buddhist), not that I mind, it strengthens my point - looks like even such narrower “broad” classification doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/72 "2011-07-06T18:51:59Z")
> [@villa](#): > > And the lawsuit uses the term “dumb down enough for the minorities”? Are you serious? of course it doesn’t use those terms. The lawsuit by the DOJ won’t even address the test directly. The assumption is that if there aren’t enough passing minorities then the test is discriminatory. Nobody here including[local civic groups and minority applicants](http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/black-applicant-protests-lowering-police-entrance-exam-scores-1099043.html?cxtype=fb_mlt)want the tests dumbed down which is what the city is doing. I’m not sure what other word to use then dumbed down when the previous requirements to pass were 66% and 72% which the DOJ approved to be lowered to 58% and 63% for the respective parts of the test ([cite](http://www.blackradionetwork.com/feds_flip_flop_on_minority_firefighters)). There is a link at the bottom of that cite that links to correspondence relating to the subject. My city has bent over backwards to accommodate the DOJ and all we’ve gotten in return is fines that come at taxpayer expense. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/73 "2011-07-06T19:01:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Are you serious? of course it doesn’t use those terms. Off course I wasn’t serious. Just wanting to see if you even realized how much you were poisoning the well. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/74 "2011-07-06T19:41:51Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Off course I wasn’t serious. Just wanting to see if you even realized how much you were poisoning the well. How have I poisoned the well? Clearly the test is being dumbed down. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/75 "2011-07-06T20:00:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > How have I poisoned the well? Clearly the test is being dumbed down. Because you say so? Because obviously “minorities” couldn’t pass a test tough enough for whites? :rolleyes: You may very well be correct in your assessment – I know when Duke Power was first dealing with equal opportunity promotions, they ran into issues owing to the disparity in schooling for pre-_Brown v. Board of Education_ Blacks vs. comparable-seniority whites. It was not a characteristic of the race but of the systemic discrimination against the race that meant they could not devise academic tests that would allow for equal competition. What I’m saying, **Magiver** , is that you’re _sounding like_ an unReconstructed racist bastard. Since I doubt that’s what you actually meant, I’m challenging you to rethink, rephrase, and say what you actually did mean in a manner that doesn’t produce the “them minorities is sure stupid, ain’t they, Jim Bob?” tone. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/76 "2011-07-06T20:02:44Z")
Simple solution: collect all the babies born in a given year, throw them in a big pile, shuffle, then hand them back at random. ---
**Author:** ![Penderel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47c2d/32.png) [@Penderel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penderel)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/77 "2011-07-06T20:23:54Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > We tried the hands off approach for a hundred years and it didn’t seem to be making any progress. So I think a more direct intervention was justified and affirmative action is a part of that. And it does seem to be producing better results than the hands off approach. Which hundred years were those? The idea of righting past wrongs through AA is ludicrous, as it helps those who weren’t directly affected by past wrongs at the expense of those who didn’t perpetrate those wrongs. It’s basically an exercise in masturbation - trying to feel good about being so non-biased (while, by definition, being biased). I had a young lady start screaming at me a few years back about how I was a racist because I didn’t watch Will & Grace (I’m simplifying, but that was the basic argument). She asked if I supported AA and I responded that I didn’t know enough about it to speak intelligently on the subject, but that I was against racial quotas. She proceeded to tell me that “black people” are poor, uneducated, and unable to fend for themselves, and that if I didn’t agree _I was racist_. Yes, this person was real. She went on to say that she was from a wealthy area and felt bad that “blacks are poor” and felt the need to make it up to them. And I’ll reiterate - she saw _nothing_ wrong with this line of thinking. I guess my point is that you can’t make things equal by practicing inequality, and that if you think any minority is too stupid to get by on their own, you’re hurting things more than helping. Oh, and one more thing - pay for your guilt on your own, not with government programs. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/78 "2011-07-06T20:59:49Z")
> [@Penderel](#): > > The idea of righting past wrongs through AA is ludicrous, as it helps those who weren’t directly affected by past wrongs at the expense of those who didn’t perpetrate those wrongs. Once again, and I’m getting sick of repeating this - AA isn’t \*just \*about helping disadvantaged individuals, it’s about changing the structure of society. And those at whose “expense” it happens are the recipients of the benefits of wrongs _even if they didn’t “perpetrate” them_ (and merely complacently collaborating in a biased system is itself a form of wrongdoing). IOW: Check your privilege. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/79 "2011-07-06T21:01:27Z")
> [@Penderel](#): > > if you think any minority is too stupid to get by on their own …is not an argument any AA proponents here are making. It’s just a strawman. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/80 "2011-07-06T21:43:32Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Because you say so? Because obviously “minorities” couldn’t pass a test tough enough for whites? :rolleyes: You may very well be correct in your assessment – I know when Duke Power was first dealing with equal opportunity promotions, they ran into issues owing to the disparity in schooling for pre-_Brown v. Board of Education_ Blacks vs. comparable-seniority whites. It was not a characteristic of the race but of the systemic discrimination against the race that meant they could not devise academic tests that would allow for equal competition. > > What I’m saying, **Magiver** , is that you’re _sounding like_ an unReconstructed racist bastard. Since I doubt that’s what you actually meant, I’m challenging you to rethink, rephrase, and say what you actually did mean in a manner that doesn’t produce the “them minorities is sure stupid, ain’t they, Jim Bob?” tone. I phrased it accurately. I cited what I said from the perspective of those involved and those who the law was suppose to represent. So far you’ve put words in my mouth and tried to call me names in a manner that you think puts you under the debate rules radar. That’s your prerogative and I think less of you now but it changes nothing of what I said. My city and the DOJ agreed to lower the test standards in an attempt to gain more minority employees. They are doing this against the wishes of the minorities involved because they don’t suffer from political correctness over a word. They get it that it’s demeaning to do this. Call it whatever you want. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874.md?page=5)