# Anybody Who Really Supports Affirmative Action? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 5, 2011, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874 "2011-07-05T03:36:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2011, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/121 "2011-07-09T10:46:45Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Oh, please not this again. Let me guess; brown people have less mobility because they are stupid compared the the Superior White Race. It applies across the board regardless of race. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2011, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/122 "2011-07-09T10:48:57Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > It applies across the board regardless of race. But you always claim that dark skinned races are inferior. Because reality just happens to conveniently conform to the profit driven prejudices of preindustrial slave traders. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2011, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/123 "2011-07-09T11:40:00Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But you always claim that dark skinned races are inferior. Not true. > [@](#): > > East Asians continue to excel in the U.S, but among minority groups, Indians are clearly the latest and greatest “model.” In 2007, the median income of households headed by an Indian American was approximately $83,000, compared with $61,000 for East Asians and $55,000 for whites. > > About 69% of Indian Americans age 25 and over have four-year college degrees, which dwarfs the rates of 51% and 30% achieved by East Asians and whites, respectively. Indian Americans are also less likely to be poor or in prison, compared with whites… > > When statistical adjustments are used to convert the backward digit span results to full-scale IQ scores, Indian Americans place at about 112 on a bell-shaped IQ distribution, with white Americans at 100. 112 is the 79th percentile of the white distribution. For more context, consider that Ashkenazi Jews are a famously intelligent ethnic group, and their mean IQ is somewhere around 110. > > Given the small sample size, the rough IQ measure and the lack of corroborating data sets, this finding of lofty Indian-American intelligence must be taken cautiously. Nevertheless, it is entirely consistent with their observed achievement. > > The superior educational attainment, academic culture and likely high IQ of Indian Americans has already made them an economic force in the U.S., and that strength can only grow. > **[Indian Americans: The New Model Minority](https://www.forbes.com/2009/02/24/bobby-jindal-indian-americans-opinions-contributors_immigrants_minority.html)** > > Doctors, engineers, spelling bee champs--and Bobby Jindal. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2011, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/124 "2011-07-09T12:26:10Z")
If Indians and East Asians are all smarty-pants and intelligence is tightly linked to success, we must question, therefore, why so many South and East Asians are so goddamn poor back at home. [An article about immigrant success, broken down by geographical origin](http://www.asian-nation.org/immigrant-stats.shtml) From this article: \*We should first understand that immigrating to another country is not an easy thing to do. It almost always involves making elaborate preparations and costs a lot of money. Many times it also means giving up personal relationships at home (at least temporarily, if not permanently) and learning a new language and culture. The point is, not everyone who wants to immigrate actually does. In fact, those who are very poor rarely immigrate – they just don’t have the resources. Those who do immigrate tend to be from their country’s middle and professional classes… The results show that immigrants as a group actually have a slightly higher college degree attainment rate and a much higher rate of having an advanced degree (medical, law, or doctorate) than do the U.S.-born. On both measures, immigrants from Africa actually have the highest educational achievement rates and they also have the lowest rate of having less than a high school education. African immigrants are also most likely to be in the labor market. Therefore, it’s clear that immigrants from Africa tend to come from their country’s elite classes. In contrast, the statistics point out that immigrants from Latin and South America and from the Caribbean have the lowest educational attainment rates. We can probably surmise from this that they are more likely to be from rural or working class backgrounds. As another example of this implication, immigrants from Latin/South America and the Caribbean have the lowest median personal (per capita) income, as well as the highest rates of living in poverty and receiving public assistance.\* So it would appear that comparing immigrants to natural-born citizens and drawing any conclusions from this about the intelligence of racial/ethnic groups would lead one to draw erroneous conclusions. According to the statistics in that article, and based on your crazy logic, **Chen** , we are supposed to believe that African immigrants are inherently more intelligent than the descendants of African slaves based on their educational and income attainment. What would be the mechanism that would explain how black folks on one continent are superior genetically to black folks from another continent–especially since the people of the latter group contain more “superior” European genes than the former? As usual, your reasoning is not reasonable. And please do not come at me with “Sub-Saharan” bullshit. Most African immigrants to the US are from areas we know to be “Sub-Saharan”, but regardless, none of the other continental groups are broken down by region. So it wouldn’t make sense to do this to Africans. ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2011, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/125 "2011-07-09T12:53:40Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :rolleyes: Oh, please. Wealth has little to do with “potential”, and far more with luck, ruthlessness and connections. The people who get wealthy the way you describe are so few as to be effectively nonexistent. Most people who are skilled and work hard are lucky if they can keep from getting poorer, they certainly aren’t likely to get rich. Hey, most rich people are dicks… no doubt about that. It’s how you can make a movie like Horrible Bosses and have a hit. But I was speaking to the poster who claimed there are “class lines”, usually used by people who want to play the class warfare card. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2011, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/126 "2011-07-09T13:01:27Z")
> [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > But I was speaking to the poster who claimed there are “class lines”, usually used by people who want to play the class warfare card. No, by people who want to fight back against he already existing class warfare from the upper class. There _are_ classes in this society, and the upper class has always been very aware of the distinction between them and the rest of us. If you aren’t in their little club, then you are either a resource to be exploited or vermin to be crushed. And pretending that classes don’t exist won’t make them go away, or protect you from those who want to harm you. ---
**Author:** ![RaleighRally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RaleighRally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaleighRally)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/127 "2011-07-09T15:57:24Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > If Indians and East Asians are all smarty-pants and intelligence is tightly linked to success, we must question, therefore, why so many South and East Asians are so goddamn poor back at home. Indians are poor at home because their average IQ is 81. East Asians (South Korea, Japan, Hong Kong) are not poor at all because their average IQ is 105-107. It does surprise me though that the swarthy Italians have higher IQ than both the Dutch and Scandinavians. It probably has to do with all the third world import these countries indulge in.:dubious: [IQ and the Wealth of Nations - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations) **@ Der Trihs** Your nick sounds German. Are your German ancestors of FrankfurtSchool-founding-stock or U.S.-founding stock? Most Americans are of the latter according to this picture: [File:Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County-1396x955.png - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County-1396x955.png) ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/128 "2011-07-09T17:10:19Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > And here in Kudzu County, Jim Bob done got named Federal funds admijistrator, and of course he gave all the contracts to Good Ol’ Boy Conszxtruction, just like always. And Miz Pearl’s wholesale business, of course she’s going to supply the Federal offices here with all the supplies they need – why, her family’s been in the business since 18 hundred forty and two! And Rufus Washington Construction, proudly African American owned and managed? Well, they can build the Black Baptist Church and pave county route ten, just like always. Ramasakhara’s Wholesale? Let them sell to their own people. This post inadvertently reveals the real truth - affirmative action is primarily a way for “respectable” whites to stick it to low-class whites, who can be recognized by their quaint dialect and silly names. Did you mention that old Jim Bob calls African-Americans “colored folks”? Rumor has it he once voted for George Wallace. He’ll pay for it, federal law will see to that. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2011, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/129 "2011-07-09T18:10:21Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > **@ Der Trihs** > Your nick sounds German. _Snerk_ ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/130 "2011-07-09T19:01:40Z")
…Post deleted. Forget it, I don’t have time to properly deal with this bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/131 "2011-07-09T20:06:12Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > For what it’s worth, I did not mean this as a personal slam against you, but simply to point out to you that the tone your post carried was one that did not match with the individual I have come to know and respect, if often disagree with. I do regret that you took offense at it. For whaqt it’s worth, my Duke Power example was an effort to suggest that contextually you were not demeaning minorities per se but the aftereffects of prior discrimination – which I but evidently not you see as good reason for AA programs today. Thanks for the clarification. I appreciate it. It’s not that I’m against AA, it’s just the methodology. As it is often practiced, it’s nothing but discrimination to make up for past discrimination which doesn’t address the bigger picture. The reason behind civil service (or any other screening) tests are and should be a way of neutrally bringing people in. That process should always be scrutinized. But if the intent is to bring in X number of group Y then we should be trying to elevate group Y to a higher level of achievement. We are pissing away our youth under the guise of political correctness and that is insulting and demeaning to everyone involved. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2011, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/132 "2011-07-09T21:41:50Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > **@ Der Trihs** > Your nick sounds German. It’s “Red Shirt” backwards. The name of a character in the _Schlock Mercenary_ webcomic, whose name was in turn a reference to the “Red Shirts” of classic _Star Trek_ who tended to get killed a lot. Since I’m a fan of both _Star Trek_ and _Schlock Mercenary_, it was one of the names I tried when I was creating an account here, and the first that turned out not to be taken. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/133 "2011-07-09T23:26:00Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > Indians are poor at home because their average IQ is 81. East Asians (South Korea, Japan, Hong Kong) are not poor at all because their average IQ is 105-107. It does surprise me though that the **swarthy** Italians have higher IQ than both the Dutch and Scandinavians. It probably has to do with all the third world import these countries indulge in.:dubious: [IQ and the Wealth of Nations - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations) (Emphasis mine) **RaleighRally** , enough with the racial/ethnic/nationality stereotyping–let alone the implication that darker skin color implies lower intelligence. Formal warning to be issued. Reason: Trolling ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/134 "2011-07-10T10:28:33Z")
@ **monstro** If you go back to my initial comment above, my point was simply that mental ability significantly predicts social mobility. > **[britishjournalpsychology.pdf](https://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/daniel.nettle/britishjournalpsychology.pdf)** > > 176.92 KB ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/135 "2011-07-10T12:07:34Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > @ **monstro** > > If you go back to my initial comment above, my point was simply that mental ability significantly predicts social mobility. > > [http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/daniel.nettle/britishjournalpsychology.pdf](http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/daniel.nettle/britishjournalpsychology.pdf) It was not a point well-made by citing immigrant success. Which was _my_ point. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/136 "2011-07-18T21:43:14Z")
> [@Penderel](#): > > Exactly what evidence is there that any white man is, by default, the recipient of some sort of benefit from a wrong? Are you fucking kidding or am I getting whooshed? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874/137 "2011-07-19T01:23:50Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s “Red Shirt” backwards. The name of a character in the _Schlock Mercenary_ webcomic, whose name was in turn a reference to the “Red Shirts” of classic _Star Trek_ who tended to get killed a lot. Since I’m a fan of both _Star Trek_ and _Schlock Mercenary_, it was one of the names I tried when I was creating an account here, and the first that turned out not to be taken. Star Trek huh? So you probably approve of human-vulcan race mixing. Don’t you know that those pointy-eared bastards just want to have carnal knowledge of our pure Earthling womenfolk? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-who-really-supports-affirmative-action/587874.md?page=6)