Just curious … to the OP, you have posted a question and received a lot of input, yet you seem really negative about most of the information and suggestions.
What exactly are you looking for in your thread? Are we all missing the boat?
Oh, sorry! I completely didn’t mean to! I’ve received some good information here. If I sound negative, it’s just that I’ve been dealing with this for more than two years now! It’s not like I have a new puppy, and it’s been a few days and I’m impatient.
I’ve tried many of the suggestions before (though no drugs yet) and been VERY patient with him. But after two years, I’m wondering if it is even possible to fix him (in the psychological sense. In the other sense, he’s already fixed…). I feel like a prisoner in my apartment.
Basically, what we do is I put him in his crate in the morning before work, and clean up the pee when I get home.
I’m looking into the nothing in life is free suggestions. He is a moderately submissive dog, at least toward people. I don’t think he doubts his place in the pack and needs to be reminded that he is lower than me; he never challenges me for anything.
If I don’t sound optimistic it’s because I’ve tried so many things for so long and been so patient. If I even saw a modicum of improvement I would be a little happier.
Oh, the other reason I might be down is that I posted my problem to a dog message board, and found out that I’m a monster because I leave my dog alone at all. Apparently we should all spend every second with our dogs, and never leave them alone, and that would solve the problem.
But, I truly appreciate the help I’ve received and spent several hours looking online at “Nothing in life is free” things last night.
**Fiveyear ** … sorry if I pounced on you, I didn’t mean to. Your frustration is totally understandable. Thank you so much for taking the time to reply.
Have you thought about consulting an animal behaviourist to try to figure out what is causing your dog’s anxiety? It’s been mentioned before but I can’t recall your response. It may not be very much money, and it may just be a visit or two. Who knows, there may even be a “coach” on-line who can help you with this.
There are signals that your dog uses to tell you when something is bothering him, that is something you could look into, just google “calming signals”. Learning this body language might help you understand what his concerns and “triggers” are.
Rescue Remedy isn’t a drug, and it might be worth a try. I just gave some to my cat and my dog because they were driving me crazy tearing around the house, and they are both much mellower. Have a look for it on-line - it may be worth a try.
May I ask which dog message board you went to? I go to one called doggiedoor and it has been quite helpful - they emphasize positive reinforcement.
I have read in several places that the dog shouldn’t see you clean up its mess - and are you using vinegar to clean it? That is apparently the very best, because it neutralizes the odour. Anything with ammonia in it will only make the dog want to pee more.
You say it isn’t a housetraining issue, but it could be - a lot of dogs “regress” after a big change, like a move. I’m sorry, I forget how long he is in the crate at one time.
What about giving him a favourite toy or something to keep him busy when you leave - like a Kong stuffed with treats, for example?
Do you know if he is peeing right after you leave? Many times if you can distract them for the first 20-30 minutes, they will be all right - that is apparently the very worst time for S/A dogs.
I’m assuming you’re taking him out right before you leave the house, and not bringing him back in until he’s peed?
Sorry, I’m kind of jumping all over the place here.
You say you’ve done a lot of reading and research, so I guess you would know a lot of this, or have already tried it all.
If you haven’t checked out the message board I mentioned above, what about giving it a whirl? Their ideas are fairly progressive and seem to be helpful for a lot of dog owners.
One more thing - I believe the point of NILIF is to set up expectations, or rules, that your dog can follow. This is supposed to comfort your dog because he knows what is expected of him; he doesn’t have to figure it out on his own.
Good luck!
The signal thing is the major thing that I have been working on since I posted this because it makes the most sense. In the past, he doesn’t get as anxious when I take out the trash. However, by “not as anxious” I mean he doesn’t pee immediately. He still runs to the door visibly upset. But, what I’ve done the past few days is turn on the radio and leave the apartment for a few seconds and come back in. I’m going to try to use the radio to mean that I’m just leaving for a second, and I’ll try to very gradually extend that second.
I’m going to get some rescue remedy this weekend. My aversion to that has always been my science background which leads me to believe that most herbal remedies are, shall we say, less effective than advertised. But, on suggestions here, I’ll put aside my bias and give it a shot.
I read that too about not letting the dog watch you clean, but if that is true, it’s got to be for more intelligent dogs! Mine is definitely not going to put all of that together! I’m using the Nature’s Miracle to clean which supposedly neutralizes all odor.
I’m certain that it isn’t housetraining regression because it ONLY happens when I leave. He has no accidents with me home.
He gets two stuffed kongs whenever I leave. He ignores them completely till I get home. I can leave filet mignon on the floor and he won’t touch it if I’m not home.
I think he is peeing within an hour of my departure as I’ve had short departures to go to the grocery store and such and he will have peed in that short period of time.
He gets a trip to the park before I leave and pees to his heart’s content. As I mentioned, before we moved, we had gotten him used to the crate, and was in there for a period of time that is actually longer than he is now (my work schedule is shorter now).
I think I hit all your points. I’ll check out that message board. But, serious dog people kind of frighten me. I mean, if you suggest that your dog is somehow treated differently than your child, you are a monster. I love the little guy, and he’s treated very well, but I’m not going to pretend he’s a kid!
Fiveyearlurker, in a lot of ways your dog sounds exactly like my dog. My two year old Bedlington Terrier seems to only be happy when I’m home. She won’t eat when I’m not around and she follows me wherever I go. In reading through this thread, I’m wondering how you react to your dog when you leave and when you come home. Do you give long goodbyes or sound excited when you get home? We’ve been taking our dog to basic dog training and we’ve talked about separation anxiety with the trainer. Our trainer says the worst thing you can do is make a big deal when leaving or coming home. The trainer has suggested we ignore her when we come home (until she calms down) and keep the goodbyes short and simple to avoid positively reinforcing the behavior associated with separation anxiety. I can’t say that this has improved anything for us yet, but maybe it will work for you if you haven’t tried this yet.
Meanwhile, I think we’ll try some of these suggestions in this thread.
Fiveyear, the signal stuff is actually very cool … I’m just learning it myself and I’m sure it will take some practice for ME to be able to learn HER language. One thing that is very important is how YOU can use some of the same signals to her, in order to communicate. Especially helpful for me has been using the deep calming breaths and sighs in order to relax myself AND her, before or during something stressful.
My opinion about the Rescue Remedy is since it can’t hurt, and it’s relatively cheap, it’s worth a try. I’m not a real believer in that kind of stuff either, but it does SEEM to work and I would rather stay away from “real” drugs.
I think the going out for a few seconds and then coming back in, and gradually extending the time you’re gone is a great way to approach it. Yeah it may seem like you’re not getting anywhere at first, but as long as you come in BEFORE your dog gets anxious, it will reassure him, and gradually you will be able to extend the time. You can keep track just by counting the seconds off, and if you hear him whine before you come in, you’ll know that you’ve left it too long, so just come back in, have a bit of a break from training, and then go back out for a shorter length of time. I think that the recommendation is to do this for maybe 5-10 minute sessions, several times a day.
**Iris’s ** suggestion about NOT making a big deal out of coming & going is very important. I am trying that with my dog as well, and it really seems to be working. It’s very hard for me to do, because I really look forward to seeing her at the end of the day, but I spend a minute putting my shoes and coat away, cuddling the cat, and THEN I quietly greet her and give her one little pat and carry on. When I leave I make sure I have everything organized beforehand so I’m not running in and out of the house because I’ve forgotten stuff, and when I head out the door, I give her one cookie (which she rarely eats until I get home) and quietly walk out of the door - there’s no “GOODBYE PUPPY, MOMMY’S GOING TO WORK NOW BUT I’LL SEE YOU SOON —BE A GOOD GIRL!!!” kind of stuff.
Also, in the house, what does he do if you go into a different room and close the door so he can’t follow you? This is something I’m really working on with my dog, because she really does like to follow me.
Our new dog trainer came over last night, and she suggested using her leash to tie the dog to the couch so that she can’t follow, and she learns to be calm on her own, because nothing is expected of her. My dog is a herding breed (border collie) and she REALLY REALLY REALLY likes to know what is going on around her, and she tries to watch everything. Just since last night she has become much more accepting of being tied up, she has about 3-4 feet of leash, and I’m in my computer room, she can’t see me, and she is doing just fine. So that is worth a try too, I would suggest.
She also reminded me that training is often an ongoing process, that once a skill or behaviour is taught, with most dogs at least, it has to be continually reinforced with mini-sessions sometimes throughout the dog’s whole life.
Wow I get very blabby on this topic - I guess because it’s so timely for me.
The message board I recommended can be a little over-the-top, but I just take it all with a grain of salt, and try not to get too flustered (or sometimes nauseated) by it. For the most part the behaviourists that provide advice are quite sensible and practical. I DO ignore most of the holistic health stuff, just because (a) the products aren’t readily available here, and (b) I prefer to work with my vet on anything medical. YMMV.
Well, I had to do this a few weeks ago when I was working on a collage and I knew she’d be all over me. She just waited outside the room for me to come back out. Every now and then she’d scratch the door, but I tried to ignore her. I know what you mean about trying to stay calm when you greet your dog. It’s hard when you’re looking forward to seeing your dog just as much as he/she is looking forward to seeing you too.
This a good suggestion, I think it’s worth a try. It sounds like it didn’t take too long for your dog to accept not being able to follow you. I’m sure my dog will remain calm, but I’m afraid she’ll just stand there with her head down, looking sad. Maybe I’ll try it anyway, and hopefully she’ll learn it’s ok not to be able to see me all the time.
You’ve forgotten the best part. The dog likes to pee when I come home from work. We leave her behind a gate in the kitchen. When I come home to see her she gets excited and then pees right in front of me. No matter what I do she pees for me. Hopefully we can find a way to stop that.
How could I forget the submissive urination!! Well, we need to try having you give her a treat when you get home to take her mind off peeing for you. I wonder if anyone else out there has this problem with their dog? The trainer said this behavior is also associated with separation anxiety.
My chihuahua is a submissive pee-er, particularly with my daughter who she adores. If The Princess[sup]TM[/sup] pays any attention to her at all when she first gets home, there will be piddle. We’ve learned that if my daughter just ignores her for a brief period, she does much better and stays dry. The Princess’
dog, Simba, once ate an entire leather couch when she was gone. Since he’s been living here and has lots of doggie company, he’s a perfect angel.
Hmmm… Savanna is Iris’ dog, though she does live with me. The dog likes me, but if Iris isn’t around the dog usually sleeps on the bed away from me. I don’t think the dog adores me, and I know she likes [b[Iris** a lot more, but she only pees for me. The good thing is that the dog does not chew on anything. We were told to have Iris ignore the dog because the dog likes her. I guess we could both ignore her as well and see if that helps.
After two years of this, I’m pretty sure I’ve read and done everything. So, as I type this, actually, I just got home and am in the fifteen minute ignoring him period. So, comings and goings are complete non-events.
The only reason I’m still not terribly optimistic is that I’ve done this before. The only thing that I’m adding is the signal, but it’s definitely worth a shot.
He’s pretty good about the “stay” command if I put him in it and leave the room, but not if I leave the apartment. “Stay” only lasts as long as I’m present.
I think there is currently less pee in his crate than usual. I guess that’s sort of a good thing. Hey, I’ll take anything.
I always laugh because apparently he is an intimidating looking dog, and people cross the street when we’re coming pretty often. It’s funny because they don’t know that he cries at being alone or being kept from people in any way and is in general such a wuss.
What is your reaction when you see that he’s peed?
I feel so bad for you and your pup 'cos you are both being so affected by this. 
My trainer (well, my dog’s trainer, but she’s really training both of us) told me last night that building my dog’s confidence in her “role” in the family and teaching her what is expected and what is not acceptable will go a long way towards reducing her anxiety in general, which in turn will reduce the way it manifests (for my dog, whining, crying, howling, pacing, panting, etc).
Have you taken your dog to any obedience or behaviour classes? Perhaps building his confidence in general will reduce his anxiety …
After all this time, I’m not surprised at all when he pees, so I can’t get all that upset. I’d be more surprised if he didn’t pee. So, I basically let him out of his crate, lock him out of it so he doesn’t track pee everywhere, and clean it up and ignore him.
As for obedience, he’s actually very good. He knows all his commands and does them pretty reliably. I would definitely not classify him as a submissive dog at all (or dominant for that matter). He certainly knows he is beneath me on the chain.
He would be the best dog in the world if it weren’t for all of this stuff. I just want to shake him and yell, “Dumbass! I’m not going to abandon you in an apartment that I pay way too much in rent for!”
Logistical question: when we are practicing our leavings (with the cue) should I crate him or leave him out?
I would practice with him in the crate, since that is the same as the real-life situation, right? And then even if you’re just going next door or running around the block, put him in his crate each time.
Then he will (hopefully) learn that when he goes in his crate, you will absolutely, positively, definitely, 100% COME BACK!
I dunno. After all this, I’M not 100% sure that I’m coming back…
:d